5 ms·

Considering that Elon puts a lot of focus on ability and skill over formalities and organizations, and that he believes that small team of highly-skilled highly

• mcphage 4y ago
  > Elon puts a lot of focus on ability and skill over formalities and organizations I'm curious what this means to you, because when I see people from inside Twitter correct him on Twitter, with specific technical statements describing what's going on—and then he fires them—that seems like formalities way outranking ability and skill.
  • haggy 4y ago
    This ^^^ My answer to this question would have been a VERY weak "Yes" before the Twitter disaster. Now that we're seeing the true Elon alongside real engineer feedback, it's a HARD no.
    • wellthatsawrap1 4y ago
      You don't know anything about this guy, his employment history, if was underperforming in the past, etc. You read yet another hit piece on Elon because he's taking out the trash at Twitter and all of a sudden this one example has TOTALLY changed your opinion. You are being manipulated.
      • aczerepinski 4y ago
        Neither does Elon.
      • mcphage 4y ago
        > You don't know anything about this guy, his employment history, if was underperforming in the past, etc. I don't, but then given Elon has been CEO for all of 2 weeks—neither does he. > You are being manipulated. As are you.
        • wellthatsawrap1 4y ago
          Look at the HN new Tab. See all the negative press about Elon and Twitter. You think this is organic?
          • deleted 4y ago
            [deleted]
          • mcphage 4y ago
            > See all the negative press about Elon and Twitter. You think this is organic? Well, it certainly hasn't been going great. I have no idea if it's organic, but the tech press reporting bad news about an ongoing tire fire is expected. Why would you even need to manipulate the news, when the company itself is generating bad news at such a rapid clip?
          • d3ad1ysp0rk 4y ago
            Yes. A lot of people are being affected by his poor choices and a lot of people are watching said outcomes play out. This means there will be a significant number of people writing about it.
      • SimianSci 4y ago
        You really can’t conceive of a world where Elon’s actions soiled his reputation? You think all of this is just some narrative being pushed, or are you just sensing a shift in public opinion and since it’s a deviation from the norm you are assigning it to some unknown “force?”
        • wellthatsawrap1 4y ago
          Has his management style changed? There are plenty of stories about him cracking the whip, being a total authoritarian jerk, etc at Tesla. Where was the outrage then? The only think that had changed is he's fallen out of favor and "public opinion" is being shifted on purpose.
  • xdavidliu 4y ago
    that reminds me of something interesting I got from reading the Walter Isaacson bio on Steve Jobs. WI generally portrays Jobs as petulant, narcissistic, and mercurial, but one area which Jobs was willing to back down was when it came to conflicts about product quality: in several instances in the book, an Apple employee gets into an argument with Jobs about what design choices are better for the user, and when the employee gave a clearly irrefutable argument, Jobs actually backed down and acknowledged that the employee's argument was superior, and I took this as evidence that, as egotistical and self-centered as Jobs was known to be, he really did put product quality and UX first. On a related note, I heard in a podcast recently that Walter Isaacson has been following Musk around for a bio.
  • bheadmaster 4y ago
    > I'm curious what this means to you In short, it means that doing things better (e.g. making a piece of software faster) for the sake of things being done better is praised, not tolerated, as is the case in the many "let's just ship it, we'll fix it later" software companies. > when I see people from inside Twitter correct him on Twitter, with specific technical statements describing what's going on—and then he fires them As far as I remember, the guy just said something along the lines "as the person who actually works on this, it's not 1000 RPCs.", to which Elon asked for a specific number, the guy replied with vague answers like "it only does like 50 RPCs all of which are async, but the software is full of bloat and various features slowing them down" which sounded nothing like "specific technical statements" to me. But I can't find the Tweet thread right now, so I won't stand by this opinion completely. Regardless - even assuming the guy is 100% in the right - I don't think that publicly going against your boss in such a passive-aggressive way, at the same time portraying him as "the guy that doesn't know what he's talking about", is a right way of handling false information. Maybe another engineer told him 1000s of RPCs are being made, or he just made a hyperbole for the sake of explanation. Benefit of doubt, and all that. Being rude will get you fired, no matter how right you are, that's kind of a given.
    • wordyskeleton 4y ago
      How can you characterize Twitter's current modus operandi under Musk as anything but "let's just ship it, we'll fix it later"? They're on iteration 5 or 6 of the checkmarks within the last week.
      • bheadmaster 4y ago
        I have no reliable information about the current modus operandi under Musk, nor about modus operandi of any of his companies. I just have a vague feeling derived from the random information about his companies and employees I've read over the years. It's very possible that it's just smoke and mirrors, but if I were given an offer, I'd at least try it for a while. If it's true, I gain a lot - if it's false, I gain a useful reference in my CV.
        • 4y ago
  • leokennis 4y ago
    I always get the feeling Musk is cosplaying the "startup mentality" without wanting to sacrifice his own need to bully people into submission.
  • jerf 4y ago
    "I'm curious what this means to you, because when I see people from inside Twitter correct him on Twitter, with specific technical statements describing what's going on—and then he fires them—that seems like formalities way outranking ability and skill." I'm curious... do you not understand why this person was fired? If I publicly corrected my CEO, I would expect to be fired. I do not work for Elon, and I make this statement independent of whoever I happen to be working for right now. Being a bit arrogant about it didn't help, but it wouldn't have helped to publicly and humbly correct the CEO. Moreover, it would not just be because the CEO had his precious fee fees hurt and he was lashing out in anger. There are perfectly sensible business reasons why it is an unacceptable risk to have someone running around publicly "correcting" the CEO while having a position within the organization. There are even legal reasons, with regard to what public statements made by an employee can legally commit the company too, and the kinds of ammunition it can hand to any future lawsuits. (Making public statements like this is not exactly like taking the stand in your own trial without a lawyer, but it's not entirely dissimilar from it either!) There is no way my value to the company, no matter how good I am, could overcome the business risks associated with such a loose cannon. It is way easier to destroy than to create. Even the best creator can't help but be able to destroy more than they can create. Businesses can't afford some random guy to anoint himself the face of the company just because he write code goodly. Like Elon, hate him, I don't care. My feelings are decidedly mixed and probably trend negative overall, though not to the extent the HN gestalt would necessarily like, and for different reasons. But if you look at this interaction in befuddlement, you need to understand what's really going on and remove your hatred from Elon from the equation, because you need to know that you, too can get fired from your job for doing the exact same thing, even if you work for a company that isn't run by Elon. In fact most people who understand this sort of thing would see the CEO not firing you as being a show of extreme weakness from the CEO. I mean, if that's how you want to go out, by all means, be my guest. There's a time and a place for it. Maybe you would personally judge this as one of them. I don't, "nuh-uh we don't make that many RPC calls for that" is not the hill I would choose to die on, but there are hills worth dying on; "whistleblowing" looks a lot like this and can be very valuable to society. I'm not saying this is never a valid move; I want the reader who is befuddled by Elon firing this person to understand the why, and that it is not even remotely Elon-specific, so that if you ever choose to do this sort of thing, at least your model of what is likely to happen in the world is accurate. This post is not a defense of Elon, this post is a public service announcement. I have no problem with people making bold choices, heck, I think our society is too risk averse to bold choices, but I think people ought to have accurate understandings of the cost/benefits of such choices.
  • lb4r 4y ago
    If that is the case, it sounds like companies then should put a lot more focus on formalities than ability and skill, considering how successful Elon's companies are and have been; success which turns very peculiar under those circumstances when you consider how engineering-oriented they are. There is, of course, another possibility, which is that Elon does in fact put a lot of focus on ability and skill over formalities, but not in literally every single situation. Which one do you think is more likely?
• mikkergp 4y ago
  I think I would love to work in an environment like you describe, but my one experience in an environment like this before was that people really emphasize working hard over working smart. (Also, if I'm not allowed to push back against management, that would be a deal breaker) I wonder what they do to stop and think of new approaches to work when everyone is tired all the time working 12 hours days. Often I find I can save 10's or hundreds of hours just from taking a break and thinking about the problem differently. Maybe I should interview to see what it's like out of the horses mouth and not rumors on the web, but my impression of the culture he is proposing is long hours for the vision, not because the work itself is engaging.
• dd82 4y ago
  You really would want to work yourself down to nothing for the worlds richest man with extremely hand-wavy equity value? There's a difference between being in a focused envcironment and being in a shitshow. Essentially this message is saying "Hey, I want to be taken advantage of, work me as hard as you want, I want more!!!!"
  • bheadmaster 4y ago
    > You really would want to work yourself down to nothing for the worlds richest man with extremely hand-wavy equity value? If I'm being challenged enough to have fun, I don't see why not. I like building software, it's my passion, and if I can get paid good money for doing interesting things while working for Elon, then good for him. Especially if the alternative is "do mind-dulling tasks 8 hours a day" for the world's richest men in some other megacorp. > There's a difference between being in a focused envcironment and being in a shitshow Yes, I don't want to be in a shitshow, I want to be in a focused environment. I don't see where the disagreement is. Perhaps you're implying I'm wrong about Musk's places of employment being as I see them - you might as well be right, but you might as well be wrong. Unless I start working for them, I guess I'll never know for sure.
    • dd82 4y ago
      you can also talk with people who've worked there and are still there/left. Basically, you don't spend long at SpaceX if you find mudane things like a good WLB or enjoy being burnt out. The disagreement here is Twitter is a shitshow under his leadership, and your words come across as you finding that interesting and place where you would like to be.
      • bheadmaster 4y ago
        > The disagreement here is Twitter is a shitshow under his leadership, and your words come across as you finding that interesting and place where you would like to be. One of the first things he did when he acquired Twitter is point out there are much more managers than engineers. He got rid of many of them. In my opinion, that's a sign of progress towards the more engineering-first environment, not regression.