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> It is still more environmental friendly to drive that 10 year old used tincan than to buy a new electric car. No it isn't, what do you base this on? Producti

by tinco 4y ago

> It is still more environmental friendly to drive that 10 year old used tincan than to buy a new electric car. No it isn't, what do you base this on? Production of a new electric van takes a limited amount of CO2, and the CO2 saved while driving it compensates for that within a couple of years. I don't know how this rumor still persists.

ihaveajob 4y ago
I'm interested in this calculation. Do you know of some data to support it?
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Interactive web app that calculates this for various vehicles. https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore Note the customisation options that let you choose a state for the electricity mix, miles driven per year and so on.
VBprogrammer 4y ago
It depends how much running around you do and how much CO2 the energy mix where you live generates. For someone doing a few thousand miles per year it could easily be the case that a new car would never pay off the additional CO2 emissions during it's manufacturer. Of course you can then make argument that they aren't doing enough mileage to justify having their own car in the first place.
epistasis 4y ago
I would go so far as to say it's a sunk cost fallacy to run the old carbon emitting car even one more mile. There is no savings to be had by waiting to convert to an EV, the total emissions are always going to be higher if you drive the polluting car rather than switching today.
- jnwatson 4y ago
  That’s demonstrably false. Each EV is an immediate ~13k kg hit on CO2. Average ICE passenger car is .4 kg CO2 per mile. Even if you have a source of zero carbon energy to power the EV, that’s 32500 miles of driving an ICE before you break even on CO2.
  - shagie 4y ago
    https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html Note the "choose a state" and compare Wyoming or West Virginia for a regular hybrid car (e.g. Prius or Insight) to an EV... and that is quite different than if you pull up California, Oregon, or Washington. In WY and WV, the plugin hybrids have a larger carbon footprint than a regular ICE hybrid car (Prius or Insight).
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    So every car that does more than 32500 comes out ahead, which is basically all of them. Youd need to commit to keeping the car for over a decade while only doing 3000 miles per year, then blowing it up out of spite to fail that.
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      Only if the electricity is net zero carbon though (and, really, only if the generation of that low-carbon electricity somehow is related to driving the car and wouldn't have been generated anyway).
      - jnwatson 4y ago
        Right, if you live in West Virginia, it is entirely possible to never have a break even point, as in, it will never save CO2 to buy an EV.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        You could always move somewhere energy generation isn't so dirty especially as its probably also effecting your air quality not to speak of the employment options.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
I drive maybe 1500 miles per year and if I calculate in petrol usage for the next 10 years where a car wasn't produced for me, it will use less CO2 overall. Since I live where the electric grid is already at the limit, my options to install a charger are limited as well. I could use 230V 16A to maybe charge it very slowly... Batteries also degrade with age and we will have to see how a used car market will look like. I have a car for luxury only since my work is a few hundred meters away. If you buy a new car anyway, an EV would be a good choice provided you have the means to charge it. Many people in the cities don't have that option. But it wouldn't be too helpful if you replace your current car just for the sake of it.
- zizee 4y ago
  1500 miles a year is a huge caveat to your earlier prouncement. Of course if you drive rarely^, an existing ICE vehicle could result in less emissions than building an entirely new EV. ^Average annual KMs driven by Europeans is 12k, Americans average 15k Miles a year. https://short-fact.com/how-many-miles-does-the-average-european-drive-per-year/#How_many_miles_does_the_average_European_drive_per_year https://short-fact.com/how-many-miles-does-the-average-europ...
- plantain 4y ago
  You can't simultaneously posit that you drive 1500 miles a year, and then complain about the charging speed. 1500 miles a year doesn't need 230V 16A. You would achieve the level of charging speed literally with a laptop charger. 200Wh/Mi -> 200 * 1500 -> 300,000Wh required -> 300,000 / 365 * 24 -> 35W charger needed.

by tinco 4y ago

ihaveajob 4y ago

I'm interested in this calculation. Do you know of some data to support it?

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Interactive web app that calculates this for various vehicles. https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore Note the customisation options that let you choose a state for the electricity mix, miles driven per year and so on.

VBprogrammer 4y ago

It depends how much running around you do and how much CO2 the energy mix where you live generates. For someone doing a few thousand miles per year it could easily be the case that a new car would never pay off the additional CO2 emissions during it's manufacturer. Of course you can then make argument that they aren't doing enough mileage to justify having their own car in the first place.

epistasis 4y ago

I would go so far as to say it's a sunk cost fallacy to run the old carbon emitting car even one more mile. There is no savings to be had by waiting to convert to an EV, the total emissions are always going to be higher if you drive the polluting car rather than switching today.

jnwatson 4y ago
That’s demonstrably false. Each EV is an immediate ~13k kg hit on CO2. Average ICE passenger car is .4 kg CO2 per mile. Even if you have a source of zero carbon energy to power the EV, that’s 32500 miles of driving an ICE before you break even on CO2.
- shagie 4y ago
  https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html Note the "choose a state" and compare Wyoming or West Virginia for a regular hybrid car (e.g. Prius or Insight) to an EV... and that is quite different than if you pull up California, Oregon, or Washington. In WY and WV, the plugin hybrids have a larger carbon footprint than a regular ICE hybrid car (Prius or Insight).
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  So every car that does more than 32500 comes out ahead, which is basically all of them. Youd need to commit to keeping the car for over a decade while only doing 3000 miles per year, then blowing it up out of spite to fail that.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Only if the electricity is net zero carbon though (and, really, only if the generation of that low-carbon electricity somehow is related to driving the car and wouldn't have been generated anyway).
    - jnwatson 4y ago
      Right, if you live in West Virginia, it is entirely possible to never have a break even point, as in, it will never save CO2 to buy an EV.
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        You could always move somewhere energy generation isn't so dirty especially as its probably also effecting your air quality not to speak of the employment options.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

I drive maybe 1500 miles per year and if I calculate in petrol usage for the next 10 years where a car wasn't produced for me, it will use less CO2 overall. Since I live where the electric grid is already at the limit, my options to install a charger are limited as well. I could use 230V 16A to maybe charge it very slowly... Batteries also degrade with age and we will have to see how a used car market will look like. I have a car for luxury only since my work is a few hundred meters away. If you buy a new car anyway, an EV would be a good choice provided you have the means to charge it. Many people in the cities don't have that option. But it wouldn't be too helpful if you replace your current car just for the sake of it.

zizee 4y ago
1500 miles a year is a huge caveat to your earlier prouncement. Of course if you drive rarely^, an existing ICE vehicle could result in less emissions than building an entirely new EV. ^Average annual KMs driven by Europeans is 12k, Americans average 15k Miles a year. https://short-fact.com/how-many-miles-does-the-average-european-drive-per-year/#How_many_miles_does_the_average_European_drive_per_year https://short-fact.com/how-many-miles-does-the-average-europ...
plantain 4y ago
You can't simultaneously posit that you drive 1500 miles a year, and then complain about the charging speed. 1500 miles a year doesn't need 230V 16A. You would achieve the level of charging speed literally with a laptop charger. 200Wh/Mi -> 200 * 1500 -> 300,000Wh required -> 300,000 / 365 * 24 -> 35W charger needed.