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Sorry, scientology? This comes off as pretty bad faith. Most EAs are people like me who read some essays, setup some recurring donations to GiveWell and call i

by Tenoke 4y ago

Sorry, scientology? This comes off as pretty bad faith. Most EAs are people like me who read some essays, setup some recurring donations to GiveWell and call it a day. If that's how being a scientology member goes then it must be milder than I've been led to believe.

AbrahamParangi 4y ago
You describe all religions. Read some scripture, perform some simple devotions, and call it a day. I don’t mean to overstate the religiosity of EA but it’s not structurally different.
- Tenoke 4y ago
  You can reduce everything to being religion if you do it this way to the point of the comparison being useless. HN? Religion. Weight lifting? Religion. Dental hygiene? Religion. Voting? Religion. Functional Programming? Religion. Punk? Religion.
  - pooper 4y ago
    > HN? Religion. Weight lifting? Religion. Dental hygiene? Religion. Voting? Religion. Functional Programming? Religion. Punk? Religion. Well dental hygiene is definitely not a religion. I don't even floss (use a water pik now but flossing back teeth is difficult, parents never taught me to floss when I was a child). Leaving this aside, I have also noticed people call test-driven development / behavior driven development religions here. Are they using hyperboles?
    - einpoklum 4y ago
      Do you even floss? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/do-you-even-lift https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/do-you-even-lift
    - agentwiggles 4y ago
      Heh, my first job was a big TDD shop and while I learned many valuable skill - and even still write my tests first at times - I definitely encountered people who were religiously dogmatic about TDD and pairing. Both of those are useful tools, but doing them 100% of the time is challenging. For me, as a brand new dev, the attitude of "you must always write a test before you write code" was stifling and made it harder to learn things at times. To quote our noble caveman patron saint, "how grug test what grug not understand domain yet?!"
  - deebosong 4y ago
    I don't disagree with you. Whatever you put your hope into, coupled with whatever you believe is true about existence – like even nihilism or solipsism or Darwinism or syncretism, etc. etc.), and however those hopes and beliefs lead to actions that consistently point back to said hopes and beliefs, pretty much reveals what we put our faith into. Again, not saying I disagree in the slightest. Just reiterating.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    I’m not sure that you know how the “thought leaders” in the upper social tiers of EA are operating. I mean that honestly and not as a slight, because if you do know we can (to the extent that I have the attention span) discuss it if we disagree and productively explore the topic: There appears to be an upper eschelon, perhaps more of a social group, who are guiding the resources of this movement along philosophical/ideological lines about which they are not being transparent. And when someone outside of that social group verges on exploring those aspects of their philosophical thinking there is an effort to silence or soften the tone of their discourse so it appears less coldly calculating, maybe (per anecdotal reports of people closely tied there) less absurdly extreme and ridiculous.
    - Viliam1234 4y ago
      For starters, it would be interesting to know who are those mysterious thought leaders. Peter Singer, the philosopher whose book inspired the movement? People at GiveWell, the charity evaluation organization? Authors of the Giving What We Can pledge? Or are these all merely puppets in the hands of the true manipulators hiding in the shadows, whose names no one dares to mention, even anonymously? Spooky...
  - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
    Judging the comparisons as useless before making them and evaluating their use? That's a common religious belief and practice that hides this truth: Belief is an arbitrary choice and a tool.
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  Little sleight of hand here. I'd arguably agree that things listed in other comments like weight lifting and functional programming and punk culture all share traits with religion, but "religion" isn't what was bad about the original comparison. Charity itself originally came from religion. The comparison was to Scientology, which on balance has all the possible bad traits of a religion and none of the good ones. What you're describing might describe most religions, but not Scientology. You can't practice Scientology at all without bringing in the extreme bullshit elements.
tptacek 4y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if that's, like, the modal experience people have with the movement. But that, too, is how Scientology works! I'm reacting to messages circulating about the whisper campaign among EA higher-ups, many of which are explicit about the fact that they didn't warn the public about Sam Bankman-Fried because EA-the-movement would ostracize them, not just from their community but also from their jobs. I'm not making those messages up. Maybe they're completely disconnected from reality? There's several of them, from several different people, though, so it'll take something more compelling than "it is unpleasant to be compared to Scientology" to refute my lying eyes. EA even has its own Xenu: it's just called AGI.
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  > I'm not making those messages up. You are also not providing evidence.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Nor will I. They're on Twitter, in screenshots. I'm comfortable with the people here who do and don't take me seriously; a perk of commenting here under my own name for over a decade, I guess.
FormerBandmate 4y ago
I think it’s important to distinguish GiveWell type stuff from the organization and belief system as a whole. Giving money to malaria nets and prevention is great, and really effective. Weird Ender’s Game navelgazing and crypto scam polycules are stupid and don’t help anyone, they’re much worse than the excesses of normal charities EA is supposed to stand against

by Tenoke 4y ago

AbrahamParangi 4y ago

You describe all religions. Read some scripture, perform some simple devotions, and call it a day. I don’t mean to overstate the religiosity of EA but it’s not structurally different.

Tenoke 4y ago
You can reduce everything to being religion if you do it this way to the point of the comparison being useless. HN? Religion. Weight lifting? Religion. Dental hygiene? Religion. Voting? Religion. Functional Programming? Religion. Punk? Religion.
- pooper 4y ago
  > HN? Religion. Weight lifting? Religion. Dental hygiene? Religion. Voting? Religion. Functional Programming? Religion. Punk? Religion. Well dental hygiene is definitely not a religion. I don't even floss (use a water pik now but flossing back teeth is difficult, parents never taught me to floss when I was a child). Leaving this aside, I have also noticed people call test-driven development / behavior driven development religions here. Are they using hyperboles?
  - einpoklum 4y ago
    Do you even floss? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/do-you-even-lift https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/do-you-even-lift
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    Heh, my first job was a big TDD shop and while I learned many valuable skill - and even still write my tests first at times - I definitely encountered people who were religiously dogmatic about TDD and pairing. Both of those are useful tools, but doing them 100% of the time is challenging. For me, as a brand new dev, the attitude of "you must always write a test before you write code" was stifling and made it harder to learn things at times. To quote our noble caveman patron saint, "how grug test what grug not understand domain yet?!"
- deebosong 4y ago
  I don't disagree with you. Whatever you put your hope into, coupled with whatever you believe is true about existence – like even nihilism or solipsism or Darwinism or syncretism, etc. etc.), and however those hopes and beliefs lead to actions that consistently point back to said hopes and beliefs, pretty much reveals what we put our faith into. Again, not saying I disagree in the slightest. Just reiterating.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  I’m not sure that you know how the “thought leaders” in the upper social tiers of EA are operating. I mean that honestly and not as a slight, because if you do know we can (to the extent that I have the attention span) discuss it if we disagree and productively explore the topic: There appears to be an upper eschelon, perhaps more of a social group, who are guiding the resources of this movement along philosophical/ideological lines about which they are not being transparent. And when someone outside of that social group verges on exploring those aspects of their philosophical thinking there is an effort to silence or soften the tone of their discourse so it appears less coldly calculating, maybe (per anecdotal reports of people closely tied there) less absurdly extreme and ridiculous.
  - Viliam1234 4y ago
    For starters, it would be interesting to know who are those mysterious thought leaders. Peter Singer, the philosopher whose book inspired the movement? People at GiveWell, the charity evaluation organization? Authors of the Giving What We Can pledge? Or are these all merely puppets in the hands of the true manipulators hiding in the shadows, whose names no one dares to mention, even anonymously? Spooky...
- crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
  Judging the comparisons as useless before making them and evaluating their use? That's a common religious belief and practice that hides this truth: Belief is an arbitrary choice and a tool.
nonameiguess 4y ago
Little sleight of hand here. I'd arguably agree that things listed in other comments like weight lifting and functional programming and punk culture all share traits with religion, but "religion" isn't what was bad about the original comparison. Charity itself originally came from religion. The comparison was to Scientology, which on balance has all the possible bad traits of a religion and none of the good ones. What you're describing might describe most religions, but not Scientology. You can't practice Scientology at all without bringing in the extreme bullshit elements.

tptacek 4y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if that's, like, the modal experience people have with the movement. But that, too, is how Scientology works! I'm reacting to messages circulating about the whisper campaign among EA higher-ups, many of which are explicit about the fact that they didn't warn the public about Sam Bankman-Fried because EA-the-movement would ostracize them, not just from their community but also from their jobs. I'm not making those messages up. Maybe they're completely disconnected from reality? There's several of them, from several different people, though, so it'll take something more compelling than "it is unpleasant to be compared to Scientology" to refute my lying eyes. EA even has its own Xenu: it's just called AGI.

Viliam1234 4y ago
> I'm not making those messages up. You are also not providing evidence.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Nor will I. They're on Twitter, in screenshots. I'm comfortable with the people here who do and don't take me seriously; a perk of commenting here under my own name for over a decade, I guess.

FormerBandmate 4y ago

I think it’s important to distinguish GiveWell type stuff from the organization and belief system as a whole. Giving money to malaria nets and prevention is great, and really effective. Weird Ender’s Game navelgazing and crypto scam polycules are stupid and don’t help anyone, they’re much worse than the excesses of normal charities EA is supposed to stand against