5 ms·

I'm not usually pro-union, but if there is any industry that needs to be unionized it's game development.

none_to_remain 4y ago
Feels like the demand to be a Game Developer means they'll end up with one of those setups where the union is big on putting up a barrier to entry
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Is that better or worse than an industry that burns through and discards young talent as standard operating procedure? I would argue that the product would only improve if it's harder to enter, but someone can have a 30 year career instead of a 5 year crunchfest. Who knows though.
  - none_to_remain 4y ago
    I don't know! Don't intend to go into the field either way so luckily I don't have to figure it out
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Could you explain what you mean by this? How does demand to be a game developer require the union to put up barriers to entry? And also, how does this compare with the demand to be in hollywood vs the actor's union?
  - none_to_remain 4y ago
    Protection of incumbent union members from masses of competitors. Acting, stage acting, not Hollywood, is actually where I'm most familiar with this through friends. If you want to be an actor, move to NYC, and try to find a role, you get sent to the back of the line at every audition and probably they don't even get to you. There was another way in (this may be outdated now) where you got points towards joining by working for certain employers. That's why some of my friends played characters for an abusive boss at a now defunct space travel theme restaurant - just for points to join the union
    - Dracophoenix 4y ago
      > space travel theme restaurant Planet Hollywood?
      - michaelleslie 4y ago
        Sounds like Mars 2112 in Times Square.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    The actor's union is a huge barrier to entry. Any movie that includes a union actor is not allowed to have non-union actors if the budget is over some small amount (like $2MM or something). The only way to get into the union is to be nominated by someone who is already in. The only way to get seen by those people is to work in adjacent jobs to acting, or get lucky and get on a small film with both union and non-union actors. Once you're in the union it's great. It's a great example of how to form a union for creative people that mandates minimum pay and working conditions but no maximum, allowing for stars to get huge checks while making sure everyone gets good conditions and living wages.
    - olddustytrail 4y ago
      > The only way to get into the union is to be nominated by someone who is already in. About 10 seconds of googling would have told you that is wrong.
  - Raidion 4y ago
    It's supply and demand. Kids don't grow up wanting to be CRUD app developers, they grow up wanting to be game developers. This means that working conditions are notoriously bad (bad pay, terrible hours). To raise pay they need to constrict supply, to constrict supply they need to put up barriers to entry. Actors union is a definite barrier to entry: you need to either be a notable independent actor/performer (rare), get a job on a SAG AFTRA because you have a talent that they can't find in union (rare), or show that you've worked in the field (non-union commercials/films) enough to be notable. Then you need to apply, pay $3k, pay ~$200 a year dues, and give up ~1.5% of all your contracts to the union. Then you can't take a non-union job (again restricting the talent pool). I honestly don't see a ton of difference between the two: both establish choke points and collective bargaining in high demand fields to improve working conditions for the people that are in the union.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  There's already a big barrier to entry: low wages and even entry-level roles demanding lots of experience When I started in the industry I couldn't afford a bed on my salary for about a year, and I only got my "in" by having a lot of experience doing indie development during high school and college - many people don't have the free time and resources to build up that portfolio.
guywithahat 4y ago
Game developers are paid well above the average income for the country and you work in an office where nobody would possibly get hurt. Why would they need to be unionized over another industry? Especially coming from someone who's not pro-union?
- DEADMEAT 4y ago
  The game industry is notorious for expecting way, way above 40hrs/wk of work, especially as deadlines to release approach. Stories of game devs sleeping under their desks at night are shockingly common.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  I know a few non-union construction workers, and a few game developers. And the construction workers seem so much less abused than the game devs. (though the game devs do make more money)
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    I think the employers of carpenters have to be pretty aware that a union is likely if they step too far out of line, though. Game development companies don't really have that threat yet. It's possible, but it hasn't really happened before.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    The construction workers also generally benefit from living in areas that they can afford to buy a home in. The game dev has the higher salary but if you are living in a apartment its of little consolation.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      This doesn't make any sense. The game developer could just move out to the suburbs and commute alongside the construction worker (construction happens downtown[1], and those workers sure as shit aren't living anywhere nearby). 1 - Pick your major city.
googlryas 4y ago
Unionization is fine, but I think a better outcome would be these individuals having enough self-respect to move to other areas of the industry where their skills are still relevant, and they are not abused but are actually treated with dignity. Though, it might be easy for me to say this, because I naturally delineate my passion from my paycheck.
- skyyler 4y ago
  Are you actually suggesting that abused employees should just get a different job? I'm trying to figure out how else to interpret "move to other areas of the industry".
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Yes, or simply not even apply for jobs at companies which are well known to abuse their employees. Unions are fine, but can take a long time. In the meanwhile individual action is still available. Just like individuals are free to boycott certain nations products or services before official sanctions are put into place. Sanctions(unions) would have a larger impact, but people still have options before that happens. An important point here is that the skills are easily transferrable to other areas of the tech world. It's not like asking a carpenter to become a metalworker.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  As it happens, people churn out of the game industry - or at least individual studios - quite frequently due to these bad work environments! But due to the massive numbers of people who want to work in games, they just get replaced and the cycle of abuse continues. The fix is to fix the workplaces.

Feels like the demand to be a Game Developer means they'll end up with one of those setups where the union is big on putting up a barrier to entry

AlexandrB 4y ago
Is that better or worse than an industry that burns through and discards young talent as standard operating procedure? I would argue that the product would only improve if it's harder to enter, but someone can have a 30 year career instead of a 5 year crunchfest. Who knows though.
- none_to_remain 4y ago
  I don't know! Don't intend to go into the field either way so luckily I don't have to figure it out
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Could you explain what you mean by this? How does demand to be a game developer require the union to put up barriers to entry? And also, how does this compare with the demand to be in hollywood vs the actor's union?
- none_to_remain 4y ago
  Protection of incumbent union members from masses of competitors. Acting, stage acting, not Hollywood, is actually where I'm most familiar with this through friends. If you want to be an actor, move to NYC, and try to find a role, you get sent to the back of the line at every audition and probably they don't even get to you. There was another way in (this may be outdated now) where you got points towards joining by working for certain employers. That's why some of my friends played characters for an abusive boss at a now defunct space travel theme restaurant - just for points to join the union
  - Dracophoenix 4y ago
    > space travel theme restaurant Planet Hollywood?
    - michaelleslie 4y ago
      Sounds like Mars 2112 in Times Square.
- jedberg 4y ago
  The actor's union is a huge barrier to entry. Any movie that includes a union actor is not allowed to have non-union actors if the budget is over some small amount (like $2MM or something). The only way to get into the union is to be nominated by someone who is already in. The only way to get seen by those people is to work in adjacent jobs to acting, or get lucky and get on a small film with both union and non-union actors. Once you're in the union it's great. It's a great example of how to form a union for creative people that mandates minimum pay and working conditions but no maximum, allowing for stars to get huge checks while making sure everyone gets good conditions and living wages.
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    > The only way to get into the union is to be nominated by someone who is already in. About 10 seconds of googling would have told you that is wrong.
- Raidion 4y ago
  It's supply and demand. Kids don't grow up wanting to be CRUD app developers, they grow up wanting to be game developers. This means that working conditions are notoriously bad (bad pay, terrible hours). To raise pay they need to constrict supply, to constrict supply they need to put up barriers to entry. Actors union is a definite barrier to entry: you need to either be a notable independent actor/performer (rare), get a job on a SAG AFTRA because you have a talent that they can't find in union (rare), or show that you've worked in the field (non-union commercials/films) enough to be notable. Then you need to apply, pay $3k, pay ~$200 a year dues, and give up ~1.5% of all your contracts to the union. Then you can't take a non-union job (again restricting the talent pool). I honestly don't see a ton of difference between the two: both establish choke points and collective bargaining in high demand fields to improve working conditions for the people that are in the union.
kevingadd 4y ago
There's already a big barrier to entry: low wages and even entry-level roles demanding lots of experience When I started in the industry I couldn't afford a bed on my salary for about a year, and I only got my "in" by having a lot of experience doing indie development during high school and college - many people don't have the free time and resources to build up that portfolio.

guywithahat 4y ago

Game developers are paid well above the average income for the country and you work in an office where nobody would possibly get hurt. Why would they need to be unionized over another industry? Especially coming from someone who's not pro-union?

DEADMEAT 4y ago
The game industry is notorious for expecting way, way above 40hrs/wk of work, especially as deadlines to release approach. Stories of game devs sleeping under their desks at night are shockingly common.
JamesBarney 4y ago
I know a few non-union construction workers, and a few game developers. And the construction workers seem so much less abused than the game devs. (though the game devs do make more money)
- wccrawford 4y ago
  I think the employers of carpenters have to be pretty aware that a union is likely if they step too far out of line, though. Game development companies don't really have that threat yet. It's possible, but it hasn't really happened before.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  The construction workers also generally benefit from living in areas that they can afford to buy a home in. The game dev has the higher salary but if you are living in a apartment its of little consolation.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. The game developer could just move out to the suburbs and commute alongside the construction worker (construction happens downtown[1], and those workers sure as shit aren't living anywhere nearby). 1 - Pick your major city.

googlryas 4y ago

Unionization is fine, but I think a better outcome would be these individuals having enough self-respect to move to other areas of the industry where their skills are still relevant, and they are not abused but are actually treated with dignity. Though, it might be easy for me to say this, because I naturally delineate my passion from my paycheck.

skyyler 4y ago
Are you actually suggesting that abused employees should just get a different job? I'm trying to figure out how else to interpret "move to other areas of the industry".
- googlryas 4y ago
  Yes, or simply not even apply for jobs at companies which are well known to abuse their employees. Unions are fine, but can take a long time. In the meanwhile individual action is still available. Just like individuals are free to boycott certain nations products or services before official sanctions are put into place. Sanctions(unions) would have a larger impact, but people still have options before that happens. An important point here is that the skills are easily transferrable to other areas of the tech world. It's not like asking a carpenter to become a metalworker.
kevingadd 4y ago
As it happens, people churn out of the game industry - or at least individual studios - quite frequently due to these bad work environments! But due to the massive numbers of people who want to work in games, they just get replaced and the cycle of abuse continues. The fix is to fix the workplaces.