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Your last isn’t accurate (Bitcoin is a commodity bc of…) Source - follow Gensler’s speeches and MIT classes, Hester Peirce’s speeches, and the SEC GitHub. Bas

Your last isn’t accurate (Bitcoin is a commodity bc of…) Source - follow Gensler’s speeches and MIT classes, Hester Peirce’s speeches, and the SEC GitHub. Basically, Bitcoin is likely not a sec because of how it works as a system, ethereum likely is not a sec but it gets opaque, clones of ethereum/EVM have similar treatments. From there, the ICO coins and similar tokens since then likely are secs, bunch of them are hazy as we veer into L1 and L2 and …. The SEC has advocated for a “regulation beach” or whatever they call it to get companies to build a token within this beach, work with the SEC, and figure out the security vs commodity question. I don’t know if this has gotten traction though. There’s a SEC speech and GitHub repo somewhere for it.

unboxingelf 4y ago
Ethereum is almost definitely a security. It had an unfair issuance and is controlled and influenced by a small group. I mean it has a roadmap by vitalik!
- anonporridge 4y ago
  Even more so now that they've migrated to proof of stake. Unlike proof of work bitcoin, the control authority of the entity that is the Ethereum network is now entirely in the hands of the top stake owners, just like control authority of a company is entirely in the hands of top shareholders.
- kinakomochidayo 4y ago
  Vitalik’s roadmap is an overall view of all the work happening in parallel and some nice to haves; it’s not an official roadmap for Ethereum. At the end of the day, the specs are defined by the community and implemented by the 10 independent client teams, compared to 1 with Bitcoin. Besides, node operators still have the choice to update or not update their nodes, similar to Bitcoin. Ethereum is not a security
  - unboxingelf 4y ago
    In all reality vitalik’s roadmap is the official roadmap. It’s clearly being followed. There is not much difference between a traditional tech company and Ethereum. Meanwhile Bitcoin has been code complete since the whitepaper was released. There is no roadmap. Ethereum is a security, Bitcoin is a commodity.
Animats 4y ago
Gensler (SEC chair) prepared remarks, 2022[1]: The Supreme Court’s 1946 Howey Test, which was about orange groves, says that an investment contract exists when there is the investment of money in a common enterprise with a reasonable expectation of profits to be derived from the efforts of others. My predecessor Jay Clayton said it, and I will reiterate it: Without prejudging any one token, most crypto tokens are investment contracts under the Howey Test. Even before the Howey test, in the first several years of our federal securities laws, some entrepreneurs were notified that they had to register their offerings of chinchillas, whiskey warehouse receipts, oyster beds, and live silver foxes as securities offerings, as “the purported sale of the…property was merely camouflage and not the substance of the transaction.” Today, many entrepreneurs are raising money from the public by selling crypto tokens, with the expectation that the managers will build an ecosystem where the token is useful and which will draw more users to the project. Thus, it is important that we work to get crypto tokens that are securities to be registered with the SEC. Issuers of crypto tokens that are securities must register their offers and sales of these assets with the SEC and comply with our disclosure requirements, or meet an exemption. Issuers of all kinds across a variety of markets successfully register and provide disclosures every day. If there are, in fact, forms or disclosure with which crypto assets truly cannot comply, our staff is here to discuss and evaluate those concerns. Any token that is a security must play by the same market integrity rulebook as other securities under our laws. That's pretty clear. If there's an issuer raising money with it, it's a security. Note the line “the purported sale of the…property was merely camouflage and not the substance of the transaction.” That covers much of the NFT market. [1] https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/gensler-remarks-crypto-markets-040422 https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/gensler-remarks-crypto-marke...
- dogman144 4y ago
  Ya, I’ve been following the Howey Test and SECs read on it since ‘17 when it really started to surface with ICOs. You copy/pasted the types of speeches I’m referring to. “everything in crypto with a live issuer behind it is probably a security.”… This claim is still a massive overstatement from a regulation-informed perspective. Everything in crypto extends beyond “much of the NFT” market. In ‘18, SEC chairman says ETH and BTC aren’t securities. Pre-merge, eth wasn’t a security to Gensler. Post-merge, it was. So then what about the many ETH-clones that didn’t do PoS and stuck with PoW/not-a-security ETH design. Also, “eth might be a security” came up in Sept ‘22. SEC and the chairman have changed minds in significant ways within that time period many times over since ‘09 and the whitepaper. It’s nowhere near cut and dry as you’re making it to be, but I won’t devolve into an argument about it and instead say there’s more info to this than your views indicate you’ve researched.

unboxingelf 4y ago

Ethereum is almost definitely a security. It had an unfair issuance and is controlled and influenced by a small group. I mean it has a roadmap by vitalik!

anonporridge 4y ago
Even more so now that they've migrated to proof of stake. Unlike proof of work bitcoin, the control authority of the entity that is the Ethereum network is now entirely in the hands of the top stake owners, just like control authority of a company is entirely in the hands of top shareholders.
kinakomochidayo 4y ago
Vitalik’s roadmap is an overall view of all the work happening in parallel and some nice to haves; it’s not an official roadmap for Ethereum. At the end of the day, the specs are defined by the community and implemented by the 10 independent client teams, compared to 1 with Bitcoin. Besides, node operators still have the choice to update or not update their nodes, similar to Bitcoin. Ethereum is not a security
- unboxingelf 4y ago
  In all reality vitalik’s roadmap is the official roadmap. It’s clearly being followed. There is not much difference between a traditional tech company and Ethereum. Meanwhile Bitcoin has been code complete since the whitepaper was released. There is no roadmap. Ethereum is a security, Bitcoin is a commodity.

Animats 4y ago

Gensler (SEC chair) prepared remarks, 2022[1]: The Supreme Court’s 1946 Howey Test, which was about orange groves, says that an investment contract exists when there is the investment of money in a common enterprise with a reasonable expectation of profits to be derived from the efforts of others. My predecessor Jay Clayton said it, and I will reiterate it: Without prejudging any one token, most crypto tokens are investment contracts under the Howey Test. Even before the Howey test, in the first several years of our federal securities laws, some entrepreneurs were notified that they had to register their offerings of chinchillas, whiskey warehouse receipts, oyster beds, and live silver foxes as securities offerings, as “the purported sale of the…property was merely camouflage and not the substance of the transaction.” Today, many entrepreneurs are raising money from the public by selling crypto tokens, with the expectation that the managers will build an ecosystem where the token is useful and which will draw more users to the project. Thus, it is important that we work to get crypto tokens that are securities to be registered with the SEC. Issuers of crypto tokens that are securities must register their offers and sales of these assets with the SEC and comply with our disclosure requirements, or meet an exemption. Issuers of all kinds across a variety of markets successfully register and provide disclosures every day. If there are, in fact, forms or disclosure with which crypto assets truly cannot comply, our staff is here to discuss and evaluate those concerns. Any token that is a security must play by the same market integrity rulebook as other securities under our laws. That's pretty clear. If there's an issuer raising money with it, it's a security. Note the line “the purported sale of the…property was merely camouflage and not the substance of the transaction.” That covers much of the NFT market. [1] https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/gensler-remarks-crypto-markets-040422 https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/gensler-remarks-crypto-marke...

dogman144 4y ago
Ya, I’ve been following the Howey Test and SECs read on it since ‘17 when it really started to surface with ICOs. You copy/pasted the types of speeches I’m referring to. “everything in crypto with a live issuer behind it is probably a security.”… This claim is still a massive overstatement from a regulation-informed perspective. Everything in crypto extends beyond “much of the NFT” market. In ‘18, SEC chairman says ETH and BTC aren’t securities. Pre-merge, eth wasn’t a security to Gensler. Post-merge, it was. So then what about the many ETH-clones that didn’t do PoS and stuck with PoW/not-a-security ETH design. Also, “eth might be a security” came up in Sept ‘22. SEC and the chairman have changed minds in significant ways within that time period many times over since ‘09 and the whitepaper. It’s nowhere near cut and dry as you’re making it to be, but I won’t devolve into an argument about it and instead say there’s more info to this than your views indicate you’ve researched.