7 ms·

Tweet temporarily derails SOPA debate

109 points by boredguy8 15y ago

nextparadigms 15y ago
This happened yesterday. The hearing seems to be in recess now: http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa
angersock 15y ago
So, does anyone here honestly believe we owe these clowns anything? How many of you in meetings with a VC tweet about being bored and surfing for cats with cheeseburgers? How many of you would keep an employee who did this during an engineering meeting? How many of you would keep working at a job when your boss ignores you so they can check their fantasy football teams? The only funny (morbidly, blackly funny) part of this is that that wasn't what stopped the debate--it was a finicky rule about choice of language, some pieces of which date back over a century and a half. Folks, these are the people running the US. These are the people who have a monopoly on force, and who claim the moral highground to do with you what they will for the nation. Why the fuck aren't you doing something?
- earbitscom 15y ago
  Occupy.
  - angersock 15y ago
    What? No. That's rubbish. The failure of the Occupy movement has been that it is primarily been driven at an emotional level, and (if my own experiences have shown anything) has lacked serious thought. So, here, we're all designers/engineers/entrepeneurs, let's talk about this. Goal: Fix what is broken with the US federal government. Constraints: Any proposed solution cannot disrupt current economy significantly (avoid riots, breaking public services, hurting people. etc.). Any proposed solution must be straightforward in implementation and simple in explanation (average Joes and Janes need to be able to get it--no GNU cat() implmentations, please). Any proposed solution must gracefully integrate or deprecate existing systems where possible (see defense, messaging [postal service], FCC, IRS, etc.)--this need not include existing legislative organs, however (those are command mechanisms, which probably would need to be replaced wholesale anyways). Any proposed solution must allow active participation by the governed and allow for expression of their will. This implies any solution must allow for equal, open, and easy access to the functioning of the government. Suggested starting point: 1. Identify what is actually wrong with the government. EDIT: Updated example list of existing systems example. Added constraint for "expression of governed's will".
    - scarmig 15y ago
      Any proposed solution cannot disrupt current economy significantly (avoid riots, breaking public services, hurting people. etc.). I think you're missing the point of the Occupy movement.
    - mladenkovacevic 15y ago
      I think before any fixing takes place.. a lot of people still need to be convinced that something is broken. Identify and visualize the "broken wheels". And no vagueness either: Name names, quote figures and compare track records to campaign platforms then get that information out there in clever, "viral" ways. Large, detailed infographics might seem popular with us nerds but general population needs very specific, dramatic examples of just how fucked up things are.
    - jsaxton86 15y ago
      Lawrence Lessig argues that the fundamental problem in government is money. Getting elected is expensive, so candidates have to build a network of donors, which creates an obvious conflict of interest if they get elected. A decent introduction to Lessig's ideas can be found here: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/lawrence-lessig-on-how-money-corrupts-congress-and-how-to-stop-it-20111005 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/... Public financing of elections would be a definite step in the right direction and meets all of your constraints.
      - roc 15y ago
        It's worth noting that Occupy movement was started in the pursuit of one clear, simple, publicly and plainly stated goal: to get the money out of politics. [1] Everyone who pushed forward the meme that the Occupiers had/have no clear agenda did nothing but expose their own ignorance, ineptitude or intellectual dishonesty. [1] http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstre... "Beginning from one simple demand -- a presidential commission to separate money from politics"
        15y ago
  - gojomo 15y ago
    Except: the Occupy protests mainly caused problems for city and local officials. Cities and localities have issues, too, but are far more representative of and responsive to their own residents' needs than Congress. (None of the cities blessed with Occupy camps proposed censoring the internet, for example.)
    - _delirium 15y ago
      > None of the cities blessed with Occupy camps proposed censoring the internet, for example. Mostly because internet regulation has been federalized. When they can, cities attempt to ban things left and right; many of the Supreme Court precedents on film censorship involve municipal statutes. Not to mention their love of "free speech zones".
- rabidsnail 15y ago
  What do you propose?
  - CoughlinJ 15y ago
    Armed revolt?
  - tibbon 15y ago
    The French had an interesting way of taking care of corrupt government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine This is being downvoted, but I do really intend a real point that isn't in jest. Politicians have zero potential of repercussion. Even in cases of corruption, fraud, etc... jailtime is minimal at best. Seizing assets or punishing those funding and conspiring with them never happens. Once you're a politician, you have free reign for corruption. Much of the US and much of the world even believes that our last President and his cabinet were likely guilty of wrongdoing on several occasions. We do need to have some method of holding stringent accountability. These men fear nothing, and respect no one. If they get voted out of office, they'll just go work for a lobbyist for 4x the salary. I don't think we have to go as far as the guillotine, but let's face it, the French Revolution was a lot more effective than the Occupy Movement at reshaping France and influencing a great deal of Europe. Find something to add weight to their decisions. Don't let them do wrong with no repercussion.
    - angersock 15y ago
      I do not support violence, but you raise an interesting point in your explanation. So, allow me to offer a condensed set of your listed problems there, and please correct me if I miss/misrepresent something: 1. No mechanism for holding politicians accountable exists. 2. In the event where a politician is found accountable, no meaningful mechanism for punishment exists.
      - grandalf 15y ago
        I'd argue that it's not just about holding politicians accountable but laws accountable. What percentage of laws accomplish what they claim to? But rather than admitting this and going back to the drawing board, people dedicate their lives to blindly supporting or opposing specific laws, placing loyalty above problem solving. That our political system (in general) rewards loyalty over problem solving is strong evidence of corruption.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  I think a committee meeting in the House is quite a different environment than an "engineering meeting". While King's tweet was obviously not offered in a respectful attitude, I don't think that's something that should be sufficiently problematic to stop real "important business". I find it interesting that this comment focuses on the impropriety of King's tweet instead of the impropriety of making a fuss about this, though obviously both are applicable to your main point that the people in charge are grossly incompetent.
  - angersock 15y ago
    I think a committee meeting in the House is quite a different environment than an "engineering meeting". I mean, they are nominally doing the same sort of work as we'd do designing control flows in software, right? They're looking at a problem, identifying issues, finding dependencies, and then picking a decision-making algorithm (the law) that should address those issues. They use legalese instead of bytecode, but the idea is the same. The idea that somehow this process should be held to different standards than any other engineering project (especially any other one which impacts so many!) is likely central to the problems we face as a country today.
    - cookiecaper 15y ago
      It's fundamentally a different thing. While the general process of logically working something out should be the same everywhere, the particulars are different. The House is full of politicians and what they say is televised and comprises part of their campaign. Ego always comes first to politicians, not problem-solving, because politicians are elected based on image and appearances, not hard results. Also, when you represent such a wide swath of people with so many conflicting interests, all of your decisions become watered down with so-called "compromise". Someone wrote on another thread about SOPA that a politician is always campaigning. I believe this to be true. Politics is almost exclusively posturing, and it's reasonable for one to tire of the senseless bloviating, especially when it pertains to technical topics on which the speaker is obviously very poorly informed. Not saying things should be this way, but that's the way they are.
  - 15y ago
- jquery 15y ago
  What are you doing?
- corin_ 15y ago
  How many of you would keep an employee who did this during an engineering meeting? My issue would be that they couldn't be polite to their colleagues, not that their being bored by someone speaking means they're doing a bad job. In this case, the politicians aren't supposed to love each other, they're from different parties. Yes, you want them to be able to work together, but saying that one person is boring you doesn't mean you aren't able to do your job and make the decisions you're there to make.
  - farinasa 15y ago
    I think the point is that if you are tweeting when you should be listening, are you actually doing your job? Theoretically, he should be listening to people's opinions on the topic and using points to help form his own opinion. Instead, his opinion (or paycheck) has already been formed and therefore is not doing his job at all. The tweet was blatant proof.
    - cchurch 15y ago
      In his defense, it was Sheila Jackson-Lee. Go watch any video of the woman, ever.
  - steve-howard 15y ago
    They're still human beings before they're republicans or democrats. I expect them to behave in a manner that says they're putting the nation first, not one that says "boo hoo, you don't agree about my pet projects and issues." There is a lack of mature, even-tempered discourse in Congress that wouldn't fly in a grade school. I do wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph, though.
    - true_religion 15y ago
      Nation? Politicians are elected to represent their constituents, and not the nation. Factionalism is a key component of the American system. They are supposed to fight for their state and not for America as a whole. In that light, having a politician say that another is 'boring' is perfectly natural.
- synnik 15y ago
  Like, vote in the upcoming elections?
  - mattmiller 15y ago
    I hate when people respond with this like it is a novel concept that nobody has every tried before. The new boss will be the same as the old.
    - synnik 15y ago
      You are missing the point. There are established mechanisms for change in this country. I grow weary of people acting like we need to rise up and take drastic action, when most people have not even gone through our established processes. And the new bosses can change. Obama's election was the result of almost nothing other than: "I'm not the status quo." And he won. So vote out every incumbent in the next election, and the message will get across loud and clear. Maybe the next generation will start with similar problems, but they just got told clearly that if they want to keep their jobs, we want CHANGE. And politicians do what it takes to get re-elected. A clear message that change is desired will change this country.
      - mattmiller 15y ago
        I voted against every incumbent last election.
        synnik 15y ago
        Good. Convince all your peers to do the same.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        > Obama's election was the result of almost nothing other than: "I'm not the status quo." And he won. Considering Obama's record, that's an argument against your point.
      - phaus 15y ago
- grandalf 15y ago
  I ask myself this question all the time. My answer is that I try to enact as much dissent as possible in small ways, including HN comments. This is not a satisfactory answer, though. Even among HN readers there are a lot of people who are still very pro-establishment in the sense that they wholeheartedly defend the NY Times, major political parties, etc. This is part of the same youthful optimism that leads people to do startups... the idea that they will soon be part of the establishment so they might as well defend it now for karma. What do you think we should all be doing?
  - seigenblues 15y ago
    you could be participating in your local elections. You could vote in primaries. You could be concerned about who's going to be your next local county sheriff, local zoning board officer, etc. You can get involved in the local political parties and affect them on a local level. (this is assuming that you already vote in all off-year elections, and already vote for president) HN sees only the top level of the abstraction and assumes that the system is a lumbering behemoth incapable of change. Pushing the system from the bottom, it's actually quite capable of very abrupt change. Unfortunately, those methods of change require copious amounts of time, and will probably replace or supplant much more enjoyable hobbies you'd rather have. In previous eras, this was considered the burden of citizenship... For a simpler answer: Call your congresscritter. They're actually very responsive to phone calls and real letters. It's not hard to do.
    - angersock 15y ago
      Local government isn't usually a huge issue (there are some problems, see the shitshow over the sewers in Birmingham). It's federal government, which functions at a high level of abstraction by definition, that has the biggest issues and the worst interface for solving them. I vote in local elections and cheerfully pay taxes--but look only towards the treatment of the online petitions hosted by our current administration to see how much attention is paid. The difficulty of participating in government isn't something to be cherished--it's something to be fixed.
  - angersock 15y ago
- davidhansen 15y ago
  The completely honest answer to your question is that I'm not willing to start killing people. Seriously, no troll. I understand that the popularity contest driven plutocracy we currently operate under will never create a sane government. This is not because voting doesn't "work" - I am not suggesting conspiracy here. But affluent societies don't give a shit. On the whole, so long as you feed, clothe, house, protect, and entertain your electorate, you can do whatever you please, and your power will likely not be challenged. My vote does not, and never will, count, when I am vastly outnumbered by the votes of people so comfortable in their lives that they don't bother with silly things like political introspection. So, my only alternative is to participate in the only historically viable means of effecting meaningful change: a violent overthrow of the system. I am not willing to do this. That is why I don't "do something".
  - jhancock 15y ago
    I have felt similar in the past...these feelings pass. Your perspective is at least partially dishonest. You don't have to kill people to start making a difference in a society where you can vote and possibly more importantly educate others on what's happening. You seem to feel that the undereducated coddled masses wouldn't be moved if you spent a bit of time trying to talk to them. I think you'd be surprised at the impact you could make in your day to day outings in the city. Get some leaflets made with your local rep's name and photo and contact info on it and put some useful info on SOPA or other things you think people should know about. Add a message to the top of the web sites you operate!! Education is a great place to start. Please don't tell me this approach won't work if you haven't bothered to try it yet.
tatsuke95 15y ago
The American political machine blows my mind. There are some big problems on the horizon, and these problems will require cooperation (or at least a little capitulation). Let's hope they figure it out.
- mladenkovacevic 15y ago
  I apologize in advance for the emotional and vague speech but the American democracy is an apparatus built to aimlessly move some rusty wheels and clatter about just nosily enough to give off the appearance of some kind of work being done. I believe there are people in politics genuinely interested in solving problems and making the country better for the majority of its citizens, but these people are helplessly stuck in this perpetual, over-complicated, irrelevant machine designed to fool the eye and distract us just long enough for someone, somewhere to shovel as much money and power into the right pile. The most dreadful thing is that this is a system we are selling all over the world, and more often than not forcing it on people quite literally at gunpoint. But as long as enough Americans are more or less content with their lives and happy enough with their social/economic status the machine will keep on working.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
sunchild 15y ago
The premise that a tweet set off the parliamentary rule enforcers is fun. Also, is there anything more boring than a tweet declaring boredom?
ck2 15y ago
interrupted the steady flow of amendments that critics were offering to SOPA, which were being merrily defeated one after another by the pro-SOPA majority on the committee. Does anyone have a complete list of these "pro-SOPA majority" handy?
jsherry 15y ago
The irony is that if SOPA passes, Rep. Steve King's experience "surfing the internet" to "kill time" would likely be significantly less interesting with less content available to view/read.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
zht 15y ago
For those Americans on HN born before the 90s, have American politicians always been this petty and ignorant? It seems like for since Obama elected the entire opposition party has tried to do everything in their power to oppose anything that the party in power has come up with. And when Democrats and GOP do agree on something, it's bills like SOPA and NDAA.
- jquery 15y ago
  This is not unique to America or recent history.
  - viraptor 15y ago
    Probably the most ridiculous example is Liberum Veto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto - not sure if any law at all would pass these days if that option was still possible.
- CWuestefeld 15y ago
  It seems like for since Obama elected the entire opposition party has tried to do everything in their power to oppose anything It hasn't been forever, but certainly much longer than Obama's term. I believe that it was under GWB that the stonewalling through threatened filibusters, and refusal to fill judicial appointments, really heated up. Obviously that was spearheaded by the Democrats, by which we can see that both parties can be petulant and petty.
  - masklinn 15y ago
    > I believe that it was under GWB that the stonewalling through threatened filibusters, and refusal to fill judicial appointments, really heated up. The Clinton presidency was full of pettiness, the Republican congress following their 1994 popularity wave were intent on destroying his two terms utterly, just because.
    - CWuestefeld 15y ago
jen_h 15y ago
If you aren't already depressed enough following these SOPA hearings, check out this interview with Mr. King: http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010120612252/us/politics-and-economics/rsn-exclusive-a-conversation-with-congressman-steve-king-taking-back-congress.html http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010120612252/us/politics-and-e... Choice bit: RSN: Cliff Kincaid recently had a National Press Club conference where he called for resurrection of the Congressional internal security committees along the lines of the House Un-American Activities Committee. Would you support recreation of such committees? King: I would. Something similar. If we called it the House Un-American Activities Committee, that would be lighting up the history of McCarthy in a way that wouldn't be necessary, although I am often quoted as saying "McCarthy was a hero for America." He was. He was right far more times than he was wrong. It is a historical fact. But I would submit a different committee name so that we don't have to deal with the history, and move forward. I think that is a good process and I would support it. My inner cynic isn't surprised by this, but that little hopeful light that typically keeps the cynic in check is flickering out. (Nota bene: Under SOPA, RSN could take down Hacker News for this comment, no?)
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - checker 15y ago
    I think many politicians possess a lack of empathy for those that aren't filling their coffers.
dglassan 15y ago
"Rep. Lamar Smith, a SOPA-loving Texas Republican who's the chairman of the committee" Didn't Lamar Smith write SOPA? And he's the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee overhearing this debate? How is this ok?
- abeppu 15y ago
  I think Smith was the leading sponsor of the bill, but that most of the text was actually written by staffers who have since become lobbyists. That aside, I think it would be kind of unreasonable to ask that committee chairs not introduce bills in the areas covered by their committees -- after all, they're supposed to be come policy experts in those topics, right? ;) Are you aware of particular things that Smith has done using the powers of his chair which seemed inappropriate? Listening to the coverage yesterday, it seemed like he wasn't suppressing debate or anything; there's little need given the overwhelming support the bill has on the committee. However, Lofgren and others repeatedly argued that hearings were required to get the opinions of technical experts ... and I might guess the chair has authority in convening such hearings?
timjahn 15y ago
Is this kindergarten play time or are we shaping laws for an entire country? I'm lucky to be an American. But lately, our government is a real embarrassment.
hastur 15y ago
HOW IS THIS NEWS? And who are the retards that vote it up? Please, make sure you also vote, when Fox reports that a Congressman farted with his mic on.
abeppu 15y ago
In fairness, the break for the parliamentarian to be consulted was shorter than the forced complete reading of the manager's amendment at the beginning of the session. And I think both sides had already acknowledged that the markup session would likely last days, and quite possibly need to be resumed in January.
lurker17 15y ago
If SOPA were law, we could use it to shut down Congress for posting content to Twitter that disrupted Congress.
darrikmazey 15y ago
Am I the only one that thinks someone bored by debate and process behind the passage of a bill (and childishly bragging about it) should be allowed (nay, encouraged) to spend their time elsewhere. Preferrably as far from Congress as possible?
jacoblyles 15y ago
We need to build a lobbyist presence for liberty. A large enough number of people have their livelihood depend on it. We ought to be able to build it. Google - put your best brains on hacking the lobbying system. The world needs you.
jaysonelliot 15y ago
What happened to the proposed blanking of Wikipedia in protest? I haven't heard anything since the original voting.
jennyjitters 15y ago
Anyone else think it's interesting that Rep. Steve King complained about being bored by using the very thing that this debate is trying to restrict? These guys kill me.
sclera 15y ago
This brings up an interesting idea, however. Now that twitter is such a big part of election campaigning, etc, couldn't twitter give an example of the perils of blocking free speech by blocking the twitter accounts of any Representatives that vote pro-SOPA? It could send a message: "Politicians, if you are so eager to block and censor internet activity, we are happy to show you first hand what it can do, starting with your re-election bid".

109 points by boredguy8 15y ago

This happened yesterday. The hearing seems to be in recess now: http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa

angersock 15y ago

So, does anyone here honestly believe we owe these clowns anything? How many of you in meetings with a VC tweet about being bored and surfing for cats with cheeseburgers? How many of you would keep an employee who did this during an engineering meeting? How many of you would keep working at a job when your boss ignores you so they can check their fantasy football teams? The only funny (morbidly, blackly funny) part of this is that that wasn't what stopped the debate--it was a finicky rule about choice of language, some pieces of which date back over a century and a half. Folks, these are the people running the US. These are the people who have a monopoly on force, and who claim the moral highground to do with you what they will for the nation. Why the fuck aren't you doing something?

earbitscom 15y ago
Occupy.
- angersock 15y ago
  What? No. That's rubbish. The failure of the Occupy movement has been that it is primarily been driven at an emotional level, and (if my own experiences have shown anything) has lacked serious thought. So, here, we're all designers/engineers/entrepeneurs, let's talk about this. Goal: Fix what is broken with the US federal government. Constraints: Any proposed solution cannot disrupt current economy significantly (avoid riots, breaking public services, hurting people. etc.). Any proposed solution must be straightforward in implementation and simple in explanation (average Joes and Janes need to be able to get it--no GNU cat() implmentations, please). Any proposed solution must gracefully integrate or deprecate existing systems where possible (see defense, messaging [postal service], FCC, IRS, etc.)--this need not include existing legislative organs, however (those are command mechanisms, which probably would need to be replaced wholesale anyways). Any proposed solution must allow active participation by the governed and allow for expression of their will. This implies any solution must allow for equal, open, and easy access to the functioning of the government. Suggested starting point: 1. Identify what is actually wrong with the government. EDIT: Updated example list of existing systems example. Added constraint for "expression of governed's will".
  - scarmig 15y ago
    Any proposed solution cannot disrupt current economy significantly (avoid riots, breaking public services, hurting people. etc.). I think you're missing the point of the Occupy movement.
  - mladenkovacevic 15y ago
    I think before any fixing takes place.. a lot of people still need to be convinced that something is broken. Identify and visualize the "broken wheels". And no vagueness either: Name names, quote figures and compare track records to campaign platforms then get that information out there in clever, "viral" ways. Large, detailed infographics might seem popular with us nerds but general population needs very specific, dramatic examples of just how fucked up things are.
  - jsaxton86 15y ago
    Lawrence Lessig argues that the fundamental problem in government is money. Getting elected is expensive, so candidates have to build a network of donors, which creates an obvious conflict of interest if they get elected. A decent introduction to Lessig's ideas can be found here: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/lawrence-lessig-on-how-money-corrupts-congress-and-how-to-stop-it-20111005 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/... Public financing of elections would be a definite step in the right direction and meets all of your constraints.
    - roc 15y ago
      It's worth noting that Occupy movement was started in the pursuit of one clear, simple, publicly and plainly stated goal: to get the money out of politics. [1] Everyone who pushed forward the meme that the Occupiers had/have no clear agenda did nothing but expose their own ignorance, ineptitude or intellectual dishonesty. [1] http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstre... "Beginning from one simple demand -- a presidential commission to separate money from politics"
      - 15y ago
- gojomo 15y ago
  Except: the Occupy protests mainly caused problems for city and local officials. Cities and localities have issues, too, but are far more representative of and responsive to their own residents' needs than Congress. (None of the cities blessed with Occupy camps proposed censoring the internet, for example.)
  - _delirium 15y ago
    > None of the cities blessed with Occupy camps proposed censoring the internet, for example. Mostly because internet regulation has been federalized. When they can, cities attempt to ban things left and right; many of the Supreme Court precedents on film censorship involve municipal statutes. Not to mention their love of "free speech zones".
rabidsnail 15y ago
What do you propose?
- CoughlinJ 15y ago
  Armed revolt?
- tibbon 15y ago
  The French had an interesting way of taking care of corrupt government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine This is being downvoted, but I do really intend a real point that isn't in jest. Politicians have zero potential of repercussion. Even in cases of corruption, fraud, etc... jailtime is minimal at best. Seizing assets or punishing those funding and conspiring with them never happens. Once you're a politician, you have free reign for corruption. Much of the US and much of the world even believes that our last President and his cabinet were likely guilty of wrongdoing on several occasions. We do need to have some method of holding stringent accountability. These men fear nothing, and respect no one. If they get voted out of office, they'll just go work for a lobbyist for 4x the salary. I don't think we have to go as far as the guillotine, but let's face it, the French Revolution was a lot more effective than the Occupy Movement at reshaping France and influencing a great deal of Europe. Find something to add weight to their decisions. Don't let them do wrong with no repercussion.
  - angersock 15y ago
    I do not support violence, but you raise an interesting point in your explanation. So, allow me to offer a condensed set of your listed problems there, and please correct me if I miss/misrepresent something: 1. No mechanism for holding politicians accountable exists. 2. In the event where a politician is found accountable, no meaningful mechanism for punishment exists.
    - grandalf 15y ago
      I'd argue that it's not just about holding politicians accountable but laws accountable. What percentage of laws accomplish what they claim to? But rather than admitting this and going back to the drawing board, people dedicate their lives to blindly supporting or opposing specific laws, placing loyalty above problem solving. That our political system (in general) rewards loyalty over problem solving is strong evidence of corruption.
cookiecaper 15y ago
I think a committee meeting in the House is quite a different environment than an "engineering meeting". While King's tweet was obviously not offered in a respectful attitude, I don't think that's something that should be sufficiently problematic to stop real "important business". I find it interesting that this comment focuses on the impropriety of King's tweet instead of the impropriety of making a fuss about this, though obviously both are applicable to your main point that the people in charge are grossly incompetent.
- angersock 15y ago
  I think a committee meeting in the House is quite a different environment than an "engineering meeting". I mean, they are nominally doing the same sort of work as we'd do designing control flows in software, right? They're looking at a problem, identifying issues, finding dependencies, and then picking a decision-making algorithm (the law) that should address those issues. They use legalese instead of bytecode, but the idea is the same. The idea that somehow this process should be held to different standards than any other engineering project (especially any other one which impacts so many!) is likely central to the problems we face as a country today.
  - cookiecaper 15y ago
    It's fundamentally a different thing. While the general process of logically working something out should be the same everywhere, the particulars are different. The House is full of politicians and what they say is televised and comprises part of their campaign. Ego always comes first to politicians, not problem-solving, because politicians are elected based on image and appearances, not hard results. Also, when you represent such a wide swath of people with so many conflicting interests, all of your decisions become watered down with so-called "compromise". Someone wrote on another thread about SOPA that a politician is always campaigning. I believe this to be true. Politics is almost exclusively posturing, and it's reasonable for one to tire of the senseless bloviating, especially when it pertains to technical topics on which the speaker is obviously very poorly informed. Not saying things should be this way, but that's the way they are.
- 15y ago
jquery 15y ago
What are you doing?
corin_ 15y ago
How many of you would keep an employee who did this during an engineering meeting? My issue would be that they couldn't be polite to their colleagues, not that their being bored by someone speaking means they're doing a bad job. In this case, the politicians aren't supposed to love each other, they're from different parties. Yes, you want them to be able to work together, but saying that one person is boring you doesn't mean you aren't able to do your job and make the decisions you're there to make.
- farinasa 15y ago
  I think the point is that if you are tweeting when you should be listening, are you actually doing your job? Theoretically, he should be listening to people's opinions on the topic and using points to help form his own opinion. Instead, his opinion (or paycheck) has already been formed and therefore is not doing his job at all. The tweet was blatant proof.
  - cchurch 15y ago
    In his defense, it was Sheila Jackson-Lee. Go watch any video of the woman, ever.
- steve-howard 15y ago
  They're still human beings before they're republicans or democrats. I expect them to behave in a manner that says they're putting the nation first, not one that says "boo hoo, you don't agree about my pet projects and issues." There is a lack of mature, even-tempered discourse in Congress that wouldn't fly in a grade school. I do wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph, though.
  - true_religion 15y ago
    Nation? Politicians are elected to represent their constituents, and not the nation. Factionalism is a key component of the American system. They are supposed to fight for their state and not for America as a whole. In that light, having a politician say that another is 'boring' is perfectly natural.
synnik 15y ago
Like, vote in the upcoming elections?
- mattmiller 15y ago
  I hate when people respond with this like it is a novel concept that nobody has every tried before. The new boss will be the same as the old.
  - synnik 15y ago
    You are missing the point. There are established mechanisms for change in this country. I grow weary of people acting like we need to rise up and take drastic action, when most people have not even gone through our established processes. And the new bosses can change. Obama's election was the result of almost nothing other than: "I'm not the status quo." And he won. So vote out every incumbent in the next election, and the message will get across loud and clear. Maybe the next generation will start with similar problems, but they just got told clearly that if they want to keep their jobs, we want CHANGE. And politicians do what it takes to get re-elected. A clear message that change is desired will change this country.
    - mattmiller 15y ago
      I voted against every incumbent last election.
      - synnik 15y ago
        Good. Convince all your peers to do the same.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      > Obama's election was the result of almost nothing other than: "I'm not the status quo." And he won. Considering Obama's record, that's an argument against your point.
    - phaus 15y ago
grandalf 15y ago
I ask myself this question all the time. My answer is that I try to enact as much dissent as possible in small ways, including HN comments. This is not a satisfactory answer, though. Even among HN readers there are a lot of people who are still very pro-establishment in the sense that they wholeheartedly defend the NY Times, major political parties, etc. This is part of the same youthful optimism that leads people to do startups... the idea that they will soon be part of the establishment so they might as well defend it now for karma. What do you think we should all be doing?
- seigenblues 15y ago
  you could be participating in your local elections. You could vote in primaries. You could be concerned about who's going to be your next local county sheriff, local zoning board officer, etc. You can get involved in the local political parties and affect them on a local level. (this is assuming that you already vote in all off-year elections, and already vote for president) HN sees only the top level of the abstraction and assumes that the system is a lumbering behemoth incapable of change. Pushing the system from the bottom, it's actually quite capable of very abrupt change. Unfortunately, those methods of change require copious amounts of time, and will probably replace or supplant much more enjoyable hobbies you'd rather have. In previous eras, this was considered the burden of citizenship... For a simpler answer: Call your congresscritter. They're actually very responsive to phone calls and real letters. It's not hard to do.
  - angersock 15y ago
    Local government isn't usually a huge issue (there are some problems, see the shitshow over the sewers in Birmingham). It's federal government, which functions at a high level of abstraction by definition, that has the biggest issues and the worst interface for solving them. I vote in local elections and cheerfully pay taxes--but look only towards the treatment of the online petitions hosted by our current administration to see how much attention is paid. The difficulty of participating in government isn't something to be cherished--it's something to be fixed.
- angersock 15y ago
davidhansen 15y ago
The completely honest answer to your question is that I'm not willing to start killing people. Seriously, no troll. I understand that the popularity contest driven plutocracy we currently operate under will never create a sane government. This is not because voting doesn't "work" - I am not suggesting conspiracy here. But affluent societies don't give a shit. On the whole, so long as you feed, clothe, house, protect, and entertain your electorate, you can do whatever you please, and your power will likely not be challenged. My vote does not, and never will, count, when I am vastly outnumbered by the votes of people so comfortable in their lives that they don't bother with silly things like political introspection. So, my only alternative is to participate in the only historically viable means of effecting meaningful change: a violent overthrow of the system. I am not willing to do this. That is why I don't "do something".
- jhancock 15y ago
  I have felt similar in the past...these feelings pass. Your perspective is at least partially dishonest. You don't have to kill people to start making a difference in a society where you can vote and possibly more importantly educate others on what's happening. You seem to feel that the undereducated coddled masses wouldn't be moved if you spent a bit of time trying to talk to them. I think you'd be surprised at the impact you could make in your day to day outings in the city. Get some leaflets made with your local rep's name and photo and contact info on it and put some useful info on SOPA or other things you think people should know about. Add a message to the top of the web sites you operate!! Education is a great place to start. Please don't tell me this approach won't work if you haven't bothered to try it yet.

tatsuke95 15y ago

The American political machine blows my mind. There are some big problems on the horizon, and these problems will require cooperation (or at least a little capitulation). Let's hope they figure it out.

mladenkovacevic 15y ago
I apologize in advance for the emotional and vague speech but the American democracy is an apparatus built to aimlessly move some rusty wheels and clatter about just nosily enough to give off the appearance of some kind of work being done. I believe there are people in politics genuinely interested in solving problems and making the country better for the majority of its citizens, but these people are helplessly stuck in this perpetual, over-complicated, irrelevant machine designed to fool the eye and distract us just long enough for someone, somewhere to shovel as much money and power into the right pile. The most dreadful thing is that this is a system we are selling all over the world, and more often than not forcing it on people quite literally at gunpoint. But as long as enough Americans are more or less content with their lives and happy enough with their social/economic status the machine will keep on working.

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sunchild 15y ago

The premise that a tweet set off the parliamentary rule enforcers is fun. Also, is there anything more boring than a tweet declaring boredom?

ck2 15y ago

interrupted the steady flow of amendments that critics were offering to SOPA, which were being merrily defeated one after another by the pro-SOPA majority on the committee. Does anyone have a complete list of these "pro-SOPA majority" handy?

jsherry 15y ago

The irony is that if SOPA passes, Rep. Steve King's experience "surfing the internet" to "kill time" would likely be significantly less interesting with less content available to view/read.

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zht 15y ago

For those Americans on HN born before the 90s, have American politicians always been this petty and ignorant? It seems like for since Obama elected the entire opposition party has tried to do everything in their power to oppose anything that the party in power has come up with. And when Democrats and GOP do agree on something, it's bills like SOPA and NDAA.

jquery 15y ago
This is not unique to America or recent history.
- viraptor 15y ago
  Probably the most ridiculous example is Liberum Veto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto - not sure if any law at all would pass these days if that option was still possible.
CWuestefeld 15y ago
It seems like for since Obama elected the entire opposition party has tried to do everything in their power to oppose anything It hasn't been forever, but certainly much longer than Obama's term. I believe that it was under GWB that the stonewalling through threatened filibusters, and refusal to fill judicial appointments, really heated up. Obviously that was spearheaded by the Democrats, by which we can see that both parties can be petulant and petty.
- masklinn 15y ago
  > I believe that it was under GWB that the stonewalling through threatened filibusters, and refusal to fill judicial appointments, really heated up. The Clinton presidency was full of pettiness, the Republican congress following their 1994 popularity wave were intent on destroying his two terms utterly, just because.
  - CWuestefeld 15y ago

jen_h 15y ago

If you aren't already depressed enough following these SOPA hearings, check out this interview with Mr. King: http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010120612252/us/politics-and-economics/rsn-exclusive-a-conversation-with-congressman-steve-king-taking-back-congress.html http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010120612252/us/politics-and-e... Choice bit: RSN: Cliff Kincaid recently had a National Press Club conference where he called for resurrection of the Congressional internal security committees along the lines of the House Un-American Activities Committee. Would you support recreation of such committees? King: I would. Something similar. If we called it the House Un-American Activities Committee, that would be lighting up the history of McCarthy in a way that wouldn't be necessary, although I am often quoted as saying "McCarthy was a hero for America." He was. He was right far more times than he was wrong. It is a historical fact. But I would submit a different committee name so that we don't have to deal with the history, and move forward. I think that is a good process and I would support it. My inner cynic isn't surprised by this, but that little hopeful light that typically keeps the cynic in check is flickering out. (Nota bene: Under SOPA, RSN could take down Hacker News for this comment, no?)

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- checker 15y ago
  I think many politicians possess a lack of empathy for those that aren't filling their coffers.

dglassan 15y ago

"Rep. Lamar Smith, a SOPA-loving Texas Republican who's the chairman of the committee" Didn't Lamar Smith write SOPA? And he's the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee overhearing this debate? How is this ok?

abeppu 15y ago
I think Smith was the leading sponsor of the bill, but that most of the text was actually written by staffers who have since become lobbyists. That aside, I think it would be kind of unreasonable to ask that committee chairs not introduce bills in the areas covered by their committees -- after all, they're supposed to be come policy experts in those topics, right? ;) Are you aware of particular things that Smith has done using the powers of his chair which seemed inappropriate? Listening to the coverage yesterday, it seemed like he wasn't suppressing debate or anything; there's little need given the overwhelming support the bill has on the committee. However, Lofgren and others repeatedly argued that hearings were required to get the opinions of technical experts ... and I might guess the chair has authority in convening such hearings?

timjahn 15y ago

Is this kindergarten play time or are we shaping laws for an entire country? I'm lucky to be an American. But lately, our government is a real embarrassment.

hastur 15y ago

HOW IS THIS NEWS? And who are the retards that vote it up? Please, make sure you also vote, when Fox reports that a Congressman farted with his mic on.

abeppu 15y ago

In fairness, the break for the parliamentarian to be consulted was shorter than the forced complete reading of the manager's amendment at the beginning of the session. And I think both sides had already acknowledged that the markup session would likely last days, and quite possibly need to be resumed in January.

lurker17 15y ago

If SOPA were law, we could use it to shut down Congress for posting content to Twitter that disrupted Congress.

darrikmazey 15y ago

Am I the only one that thinks someone bored by debate and process behind the passage of a bill (and childishly bragging about it) should be allowed (nay, encouraged) to spend their time elsewhere. Preferrably as far from Congress as possible?

jacoblyles 15y ago

We need to build a lobbyist presence for liberty. A large enough number of people have their livelihood depend on it. We ought to be able to build it. Google - put your best brains on hacking the lobbying system. The world needs you.

jaysonelliot 15y ago

What happened to the proposed blanking of Wikipedia in protest? I haven't heard anything since the original voting.

jennyjitters 15y ago

Anyone else think it's interesting that Rep. Steve King complained about being bored by using the very thing that this debate is trying to restrict? These guys kill me.

sclera 15y ago

This brings up an interesting idea, however. Now that twitter is such a big part of election campaigning, etc, couldn't twitter give an example of the perils of blocking free speech by blocking the twitter accounts of any Representatives that vote pro-SOPA? It could send a message: "Politicians, if you are so eager to block and censor internet activity, we are happy to show you first hand what it can do, starting with your re-election bid".