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The piece is well informed and aggregates a variety of sources only a few of which are not completely credible. the NYT literally refuses to use the word "fraud

The piece is well informed and aggregates a variety of sources only a few of which are not completely credible. the NYT literally refuses to use the word "fraud" or hint at criminality after Sam stole ten billion dollars from customers.

hoffs 4y ago
Because actual journalists have standards to abide
- jasmer 4y ago
  ? Stealing $10B is fraud. So when $10B goes missing, due to what we know is 'bad behaviour' at minimum, and all the other 'smoke' around this story - we should use that word in proper context. This is literally one of the biggest fraud cases in history. By their own 'standards' they are compelled to use the word in proper context.
  - thehappypm 4y ago
    I don’t think it’s up to their standard yet. Of course the whole world believes it’s a big case of fraud but they may need to wait until there is more clarity on that.
  - danaris 4y ago
    While I'm sympathetic to this position, I can also easily see an argument from the NYT's side that "fraud" is a specific criminal allegation, and as such using it in an article like this could open them up to libel or defamation suits.
    - enraged_camel 4y ago
      I mean, they can always call it "alleged fraud", right? They use that kind of language to describe all sorts of alleged crimes.
      - danaris 4y ago
        They can, which is part of why I'm so sympathetic to the GP's position.
burkaman 4y ago
> the NYT literally refuses to use the word "fraud" or hint at criminality 11/10: Meanwhile, the S.E.C. and the Justice Department are said to be investigating FTX for potential securities violations. [...] Whether S.B.F. or others associated with FTX also face civil or criminal action — and where such legal fights would take place — remains unclear. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/10/business/dealbook/ftx-crypto-binance-sbf-cz.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/10/business/dealbook/ftx-cry... 11/11: Authorities worldwide are intensifying their scrutiny of the embattled cryptocurrency exchange, amid concern about improper use of customer money. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/dealbook/ftx-sbf-regulators-crypto-bahamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/dealbook/ftx-sbf... 11/11: The bankruptcy proceedings may be only the beginning of Mr. Bankman-Fried’s legal troubles. Federal investigators are examining the relationship between FTX and Alameda, and customers are likely to file lawsuits. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/ftx-bankruptcy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/ftx-bankruptcy.h... 11/12: The implosion of Mr. Bankman-Fried’s cryptocurrency exchange has already cost customers billions of dollars in lost crypto deposits, setting off law-enforcement investigations that could lead to criminal charges. [...] Investigators at the S.E.C. and the Justice Department are examining whether Mr. Bankman-Fried improperly used customer funds to prop up Alameda Research, a trading firm that he also owns. FTX lent as much as $10 billion in customer funds to Alameda, according to a person familiar with the finances. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/12/business/ftx-cryptocurrency-hack.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/12/business/ftx-cryptocurren... 11/13: “Sam and FTX had a lot of good will — and some of that good will was the result of association with ideas I have spent my career promoting,” the philosopher William MacAskill, a founder of the effective altruism movement who has known Mr. Bankman-Fried since the FTX founder was an undergraduate at M.I.T., wrote on Twitter on Friday. “If that good will laundered fraud, I am ashamed.” - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-altruism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-al... 11/14: Should the U.S. have moved faster to create an attractive regulatory environment so companies like FTX would have moved here and had to abide by Washington’s rules? Maybe. But if the FTX case turns out to be fraud, regulation unto itself may not have been enough to stop it. Madoff didn’t live on an island beyond U.S. jurisdiction — he was based on Lexington Avenue. [...] If we ultimately learn that FTX’s undoing is the first of many in an industry that has been built on a pile of offshore fairy-dust leverage, the regulatory lesson will actually be the opposite: The S.E.C., C.F.T.C. and Treasury will have proved prescient for all their warnings to the public that crypto was too risky. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dealbook/ftx-bankruptcy-regulators-investors-cz-sbf.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dealbook/ftx-ban... 11/15: Major questions still remain, such as whether FTX improperly used billions of dollars of customers’ funds to prop up Alameda Research, a trading firm that Bankman-Fried also founded. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/briefing/iran-clampdown-protesters-xi-biden.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/briefing/iran-clampdown-p...

hoffs 4y ago

Because actual journalists have standards to abide

jasmer 4y ago
? Stealing $10B is fraud. So when $10B goes missing, due to what we know is 'bad behaviour' at minimum, and all the other 'smoke' around this story - we should use that word in proper context. This is literally one of the biggest fraud cases in history. By their own 'standards' they are compelled to use the word in proper context.
- thehappypm 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s up to their standard yet. Of course the whole world believes it’s a big case of fraud but they may need to wait until there is more clarity on that.
- danaris 4y ago
  While I'm sympathetic to this position, I can also easily see an argument from the NYT's side that "fraud" is a specific criminal allegation, and as such using it in an article like this could open them up to libel or defamation suits.
  - enraged_camel 4y ago
    I mean, they can always call it "alleged fraud", right? They use that kind of language to describe all sorts of alleged crimes.
    - danaris 4y ago
      They can, which is part of why I'm so sympathetic to the GP's position.

burkaman 4y ago

> the NYT literally refuses to use the word "fraud" or hint at criminality 11/10: Meanwhile, the S.E.C. and the Justice Department are said to be investigating FTX for potential securities violations. [...] Whether S.B.F. or others associated with FTX also face civil or criminal action — and where such legal fights would take place — remains unclear. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/10/business/dealbook/ftx-crypto-binance-sbf-cz.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/10/business/dealbook/ftx-cry... 11/11: Authorities worldwide are intensifying their scrutiny of the embattled cryptocurrency exchange, amid concern about improper use of customer money. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/dealbook/ftx-sbf-regulators-crypto-bahamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/dealbook/ftx-sbf... 11/11: The bankruptcy proceedings may be only the beginning of Mr. Bankman-Fried’s legal troubles. Federal investigators are examining the relationship between FTX and Alameda, and customers are likely to file lawsuits. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/ftx-bankruptcy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/business/ftx-bankruptcy.h... 11/12: The implosion of Mr. Bankman-Fried’s cryptocurrency exchange has already cost customers billions of dollars in lost crypto deposits, setting off law-enforcement investigations that could lead to criminal charges. [...] Investigators at the S.E.C. and the Justice Department are examining whether Mr. Bankman-Fried improperly used customer funds to prop up Alameda Research, a trading firm that he also owns. FTX lent as much as $10 billion in customer funds to Alameda, according to a person familiar with the finances. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/12/business/ftx-cryptocurrency-hack.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/12/business/ftx-cryptocurren... 11/13: “Sam and FTX had a lot of good will — and some of that good will was the result of association with ideas I have spent my career promoting,” the philosopher William MacAskill, a founder of the effective altruism movement who has known Mr. Bankman-Fried since the FTX founder was an undergraduate at M.I.T., wrote on Twitter on Friday. “If that good will laundered fraud, I am ashamed.” - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-altruism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-al... 11/14: Should the U.S. have moved faster to create an attractive regulatory environment so companies like FTX would have moved here and had to abide by Washington’s rules? Maybe. But if the FTX case turns out to be fraud, regulation unto itself may not have been enough to stop it. Madoff didn’t live on an island beyond U.S. jurisdiction — he was based on Lexington Avenue. [...] If we ultimately learn that FTX’s undoing is the first of many in an industry that has been built on a pile of offshore fairy-dust leverage, the regulatory lesson will actually be the opposite: The S.E.C., C.F.T.C. and Treasury will have proved prescient for all their warnings to the public that crypto was too risky. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dealbook/ftx-bankruptcy-regulators-investors-cz-sbf.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dealbook/ftx-ban... 11/15: Major questions still remain, such as whether FTX improperly used billions of dollars of customers’ funds to prop up Alameda Research, a trading firm that Bankman-Fried also founded. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/briefing/iran-clampdown-protesters-xi-biden.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/briefing/iran-clampdown-p...