6 ms·

Can you link the source? My google search of "punctuality and logical objectivity were "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" didn't find a

Can you link the source? My google search of "punctuality and logical objectivity were "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" didn't find any exact matches so I'm curious which guide you're referring to.

causi 4y ago
It was actually the National Museum for African American History and Culture. https://i.imgur.com/jFSGqnl.png https://i.imgur.com/jFSGqnl.png
- WindyMiller 4y ago
  But this doesn't say what you said, and isn't a "racial sensitivity guide" for employees.
  - causi 4y ago
    It'd been quite a while since I saw it. I misremembered.
    - yrro 4y ago
      Would you mind editing your original post with a clarification? Most will read it but not the replies...
      - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
        The user “causi” might as well delete it. The whole premise of their top-level comment was characterizing a “racial sensitivity guide” of which they have no adequate recollection, and cannot provide evidence that it even existed as they described. A more cynical person might say they’ve injected a red herring into the thread, wasting others’ time.
    - WindyMiller 4y ago
      Fair enough. I think a lot of these concerns are based on misrememberings and misunderstandings. I think it would have been helpful to mention when you posted the link that you had misremembered it, though.
      - causi 4y ago
        My apologies. I tried to edit it but I think there are too many replies.
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    https://archive.ph/u86Ke https://archive.ph/u86Ke >The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist. It's funny how every single conversation about this stuff spends most of its time debating whether its really happening and almost no time on the actual content of the ideology being pushed.
- krapp 4y ago
  The phrase "punctuality and logical objectivity (were|are) "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" does not appear anywhere in that image, nor does any assertion of the kind. It's just a (somewhat stereotypical - "bland is best," really?) list of the aspects of Western culture which the author believes derive from "white culture." It doesn't even present these points as negative. If one were to criticize it, one could point out the degree to which many so-called "white cultural" ideals were founded on a religion not created by white people (Christianity) and non-Judeo-Christian (Greek and Hindu) philosophy and ideals. The European cultural complex didn't arise in a vaccuum. Also that many of those bullet points seem to be so vague as to be universal. For instance, I doubt white people alone recognize the existence of cause and effect, respect for authority or patriarchy. But the general premise - that the constructs of white culture (to the degree that it exists, which itself is debated) are considered default in American society, as a function of white supremacy reinforcing that default on all races and suppressing cultural variance in the name of conformity to a white-derived normativity - is correct.
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Its the only society, that integrated large scale the best of other cultures, leaving behind some of the worst in all cultures. Japanese culture, Indian culture, european cultures it all went into the melting pot and was accepted, aprreciated and cheered on. That happened nowhere else on that scale, except as a remimport from america, and its very insulting to insinunuate that the rejected cultural pieces were rejected out of racism. The truth is, lots of other cultures have horrible bits and pieces, that were washed out of the blending for a very good reason. This very debate, would never be had, in a majority of countries around the globe. Which makes it all the more incredible, that the "host" operating system culture of the melting pot is attacked and a attempt is made to "regulate" cultural blending. Its a majority vote system, without a need for regulation. The good thing goes in ("Yoga" as a sport, meditation system), the bad stays out (insane cults, backwards religous practices that are abanduned in all religions). Nobody needed to facilitate or control that, but a sparse, neutral stove and a pot. The people vote, with there feet, there wallets and there actions. Unemployed commisars, race-warriors and revolutionarys are free to form a line for unemployment checks.
- bawolff 4y ago
  That seems so american centric. Like im white and canadian, which is basically the same culture as america, but like a quarter of these seem specificly american to me. And a bunch seem rediculous to apply as "white culture". Like that your intent matters when it comes to morality. I can appreciate that different cultures fall differently on the spectrum between outcome vs intention, but i highly highly doubt that white people are the only ones who give primacy to intention. The white people value rationality part seems straight up racist.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - onos 4y ago
    Absolutely these people are American centric. They aim to convince everyone that USA is uniquely evil and having people look into what humanity has really been up to in any other location or time period would completely discredit their goal. Similar for communists. Don’t bother asking them for a historical track record of that idea.
  - WindyMiller 4y ago
    It does say 'in the United States'. And it doesn't say that any of these are unique to that culture.
  - crashingintoyou 4y ago
    It might seems pretty American, but if you want the Canadian version you can find it here: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/only-white-people-can-be-racist-inside-global-affairs-anti-racism-course-materials https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/only-white-people-can-b... see, e.g., "Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture" docs around 50-60 pages into the document dump at https://www.scribd.com/document/501975490/Government-of-Canada-anti-racism-training-documents https://www.scribd.com/document/501975490/Government-of-Cana...
    - bawolff 4y ago
      Can you be specific as to what you are trying to say here? The docs dont look remotely comparable to me. American doc: logical thinking is a part of white culture (with the implication it is not a part of other cultures) Canadian doc: white supremists are often defensive and hoard power.
barry-cotter 4y ago
If you want examples finding them will not be hard. Scroll down to find the infographic from the National Museum of African American History & Culture. It has points on work ethic, future orientation and time that fit fine with what you’re responding to. https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/15/smithsonian-pushes-racist-material-claiming-white-culture-is-nuclear-family-self-reliance-being-polite/ https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/15/smithsonian-pushes-raci...
viraptor 4y ago
While others covered the guide part, I just wanted to note some context about punctuality. In case people didn't know, this is actually very culture-dependent. For example in Australia, guides organising meetings with people from indigenous mobs sometimes refer to the meetings as running on "black man's time" . Essentially it means that the community comes first for them so when they have something else to do, it takes priority. The local person may turn up an hour late, or not at all, and it's not seen as lack of respect from their side.
- onos 4y ago
  Very interesting, cause that’s a reasonable explanation for that alternative norm. Ultimately, if we’re gonna ask what norms are good we should have some cost function we are trying to optimize and ask for norms that encourage it to go up. Totally reasonable for different people to have different ideas of the good life and get different norms following that.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Any international business has training for these kind of cultural differences. For example, when and if you refer to people by their first name or more formally with full titles for example. Whether working long into the night means you're dedicated or inefficient. These are not right or wrong as such, they're just culture, but if you blunder into the situation assuming that everyone has the same culture, then someone bluntly telling you what's wrong with an idea can seem intentionally aggressive and rude, or someone trying to politely say no might seem vague, or worse, be taken as tacit agreement.
hackinthebochs 4y ago
https://archive.ph/u86Ke https://archive.ph/u86Ke >The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist.

causi 4y ago

It was actually the National Museum for African American History and Culture. https://i.imgur.com/jFSGqnl.png https://i.imgur.com/jFSGqnl.png

WindyMiller 4y ago
But this doesn't say what you said, and isn't a "racial sensitivity guide" for employees.
- causi 4y ago
  It'd been quite a while since I saw it. I misremembered.
  - yrro 4y ago
    Would you mind editing your original post with a clarification? Most will read it but not the replies...
    - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
      The user “causi” might as well delete it. The whole premise of their top-level comment was characterizing a “racial sensitivity guide” of which they have no adequate recollection, and cannot provide evidence that it even existed as they described. A more cynical person might say they’ve injected a red herring into the thread, wasting others’ time.
  - WindyMiller 4y ago
    Fair enough. I think a lot of these concerns are based on misrememberings and misunderstandings. I think it would have been helpful to mention when you posted the link that you had misremembered it, though.
    - causi 4y ago
      My apologies. I tried to edit it but I think there are too many replies.
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  https://archive.ph/u86Ke https://archive.ph/u86Ke >The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist. It's funny how every single conversation about this stuff spends most of its time debating whether its really happening and almost no time on the actual content of the ideology being pushed.
krapp 4y ago
The phrase "punctuality and logical objectivity (were|are) "white expectations" not to be applied to persons of color" does not appear anywhere in that image, nor does any assertion of the kind. It's just a (somewhat stereotypical - "bland is best," really?) list of the aspects of Western culture which the author believes derive from "white culture." It doesn't even present these points as negative. If one were to criticize it, one could point out the degree to which many so-called "white cultural" ideals were founded on a religion not created by white people (Christianity) and non-Judeo-Christian (Greek and Hindu) philosophy and ideals. The European cultural complex didn't arise in a vaccuum. Also that many of those bullet points seem to be so vague as to be universal. For instance, I doubt white people alone recognize the existence of cause and effect, respect for authority or patriarchy. But the general premise - that the constructs of white culture (to the degree that it exists, which itself is debated) are considered default in American society, as a function of white supremacy reinforcing that default on all races and suppressing cultural variance in the name of conformity to a white-derived normativity - is correct.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Its the only society, that integrated large scale the best of other cultures, leaving behind some of the worst in all cultures. Japanese culture, Indian culture, european cultures it all went into the melting pot and was accepted, aprreciated and cheered on. That happened nowhere else on that scale, except as a remimport from america, and its very insulting to insinunuate that the rejected cultural pieces were rejected out of racism. The truth is, lots of other cultures have horrible bits and pieces, that were washed out of the blending for a very good reason. This very debate, would never be had, in a majority of countries around the globe. Which makes it all the more incredible, that the "host" operating system culture of the melting pot is attacked and a attempt is made to "regulate" cultural blending. Its a majority vote system, without a need for regulation. The good thing goes in ("Yoga" as a sport, meditation system), the bad stays out (insane cults, backwards religous practices that are abanduned in all religions). Nobody needed to facilitate or control that, but a sparse, neutral stove and a pot. The people vote, with there feet, there wallets and there actions. Unemployed commisars, race-warriors and revolutionarys are free to form a line for unemployment checks.
bawolff 4y ago
That seems so american centric. Like im white and canadian, which is basically the same culture as america, but like a quarter of these seem specificly american to me. And a bunch seem rediculous to apply as "white culture". Like that your intent matters when it comes to morality. I can appreciate that different cultures fall differently on the spectrum between outcome vs intention, but i highly highly doubt that white people are the only ones who give primacy to intention. The white people value rationality part seems straight up racist.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- onos 4y ago
  Absolutely these people are American centric. They aim to convince everyone that USA is uniquely evil and having people look into what humanity has really been up to in any other location or time period would completely discredit their goal. Similar for communists. Don’t bother asking them for a historical track record of that idea.
- WindyMiller 4y ago
  It does say 'in the United States'. And it doesn't say that any of these are unique to that culture.
- crashingintoyou 4y ago
  It might seems pretty American, but if you want the Canadian version you can find it here: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/only-white-people-can-be-racist-inside-global-affairs-anti-racism-course-materials https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/only-white-people-can-b... see, e.g., "Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture" docs around 50-60 pages into the document dump at https://www.scribd.com/document/501975490/Government-of-Canada-anti-racism-training-documents https://www.scribd.com/document/501975490/Government-of-Cana...
  - bawolff 4y ago
    Can you be specific as to what you are trying to say here? The docs dont look remotely comparable to me. American doc: logical thinking is a part of white culture (with the implication it is not a part of other cultures) Canadian doc: white supremists are often defensive and hoard power.

barry-cotter 4y ago

If you want examples finding them will not be hard. Scroll down to find the infographic from the National Museum of African American History & Culture. It has points on work ethic, future orientation and time that fit fine with what you’re responding to. https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/15/smithsonian-pushes-racist-material-claiming-white-culture-is-nuclear-family-self-reliance-being-polite/ https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/15/smithsonian-pushes-raci...

viraptor 4y ago

While others covered the guide part, I just wanted to note some context about punctuality. In case people didn't know, this is actually very culture-dependent. For example in Australia, guides organising meetings with people from indigenous mobs sometimes refer to the meetings as running on "black man's time" . Essentially it means that the community comes first for them so when they have something else to do, it takes priority. The local person may turn up an hour late, or not at all, and it's not seen as lack of respect from their side.

onos 4y ago
Very interesting, cause that’s a reasonable explanation for that alternative norm. Ultimately, if we’re gonna ask what norms are good we should have some cost function we are trying to optimize and ask for norms that encourage it to go up. Totally reasonable for different people to have different ideas of the good life and get different norms following that.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Any international business has training for these kind of cultural differences. For example, when and if you refer to people by their first name or more formally with full titles for example. Whether working long into the night means you're dedicated or inefficient. These are not right or wrong as such, they're just culture, but if you blunder into the situation assuming that everyone has the same culture, then someone bluntly telling you what's wrong with an idea can seem intentionally aggressive and rude, or someone trying to politely say no might seem vague, or worse, be taken as tacit agreement.

hackinthebochs 4y ago

https://archive.ph/u86Ke https://archive.ph/u86Ke >The framework recommends eight times that teachers use a troubling document, “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction: Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction.” This manual claims that teachers addressing students’ mistakes forthrightly is a form of white supremacy. It sets forth indicators of “white supremacy culture in the mathematics classroom,” including a focus on “getting the right answer,” teaching math in a “linear fashion,” requiring students to “show their work” and grading them on demonstrated knowledge of the subject matter. “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false,” the manual explains. “Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuates ‘objectivity.’ ” Apparently, that’s also racist.