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If there's anything Tesla seems to have proven, it's that dealerships are actually good (or at least better) for the customer. Tesla customers are a captive aud

• drcross 4y ago
  >no customer service I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. What I do have a problem with is negotiating a price for a vehicle from a slimy dealership agent who have a litany of techniques to increase their profit for no good reason. On the Tesla website the price you pay is the price that everyone pays.
  • arcticbull 4y ago
    I agree their pricing model is good, but that has nothing to do with the value proposition of dealerships - just their approach to pricing. Ford could mandate flat pricing overnight to all their dealers too. It's just never been in corporate's interest, until now. For example a MacBook costs the same at BestBuy as it does at an Apple store as it does at apple.com I'm hardly a Musk fanboy, in fact I have strong negative opinions about the, er, gentleman, but this push towards flat pricing and allowing sales directly to individuals is imo an unequivocal good. If the price everyone pays is the same online and at the dealerships then dealerships can prove their value to the customer - or not.
    • fragmede 4y ago
      Ford tried with the F150 Lightning and the top end Mustangs, but the dealers all decided they like money more, so you're not getting either of those for anywhere near MSRP. Not for lack of trying by Ford though: https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-markup/ https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-ma...
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      • arcticbull 4y ago
        I mean there's ways. They could just not sell to dealers who are found to be selling over MSRP. It won't be easy, but having an online direct channel makes it a lot easier. Depends how committed you really are, I guess.
        • pexabit 4y ago
          Price functions to clear the market. If the MSRP is too low, then you are going to find waiting lists. It is not like dealers like selling at a price that forces them to carry more inventory than they need to operate.
    • pexabit 4y ago
      Ford could do this, but cars are expensive assets that are hard to move around and so subject to changes in local demand, macroeconomic circumstances, etc. Ford would not be able to successfully push flat pricing onto its dealers, because the dealers discover the price that clears their local market.
      • arcticbull 4y ago
        Why doesn't this happen in any other industry? You pay the same amount for an Apple laptop from every shop that sells it. Why doesn't BestBuy 'discover the price that clears their local market'?
        • arcticbull 4y ago
          Btw I meant this as an earnest question, you got me thinking. How are fridge manufacturers able to have consistent pricing while car makers aren’t? Apple sets a floor price through razor thin margins but how do they set a ceiling?
  • pexabit 4y ago
    Maybe I am wrong about this, but the price you pay at a dealership is the spot price for a car now and here. The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. Am I wrong?
    • plasticchris 4y ago
      Sort of, at least last summer if you wanted a car here and now there was a premium attached but you could order one for msrp and indefinitely far in the future is pretty accurate as to when it would arrive.
    • KptMarchewa 4y ago
      In times of smaller demand, Tesla also had inventory on hand that they sold right now. On the other hand, dealerships also sold future cars - and sometimes still do - when you want to have something customized. So, there's no difference besides difference in demand.
    • Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      > The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. FWIW, the delivery estimates displayed on the Tesla web site for cars currently in production are pretty accurate. Also, if you order a Performance/Plaid model, you get to the front of the queue. ;-) > I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. In that case, you're buying a used one from a dealer, so that would be true. The annoying thing with dealers though is that when it comes to Tesla, they often have no clue what they're actually selling, or they're trying to rip off naive customers. I've seen them try to sell base Model 3's for $55K. For just a couple thousand more, you could get a brand new Model 3 Performance delivered in 2-4 weeks.
  • idop 4y ago
    > I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. Good for you, really. That doesn't invalidate the countless horror stories that prop up on those forums multiple times a day.
    • pvaldes 4y ago
      I assume that some of those at least could be fake. Not easy to know it.
    • mensetmanusman 4y ago
      It can be useful to put feelings aside, consider that horror stories are exactly that, and look at data: https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/amp/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie...
  • listenallyall 4y ago
    Tesla (and fixed-price car sellers like CarMax) are profiting handsomely squarely off of your inability, unwillingness or fear of negotiating. They just bake the full profit right into the up-front price and wait for people like yourself, happy to pay full price. Your loss.
    • kortilla 4y ago
      Do you negotiate when purchasing a toilet at Home Depot?
      • simon_o 4y ago
        If you are buying toilets for 50.000 you probably should be.
      • listenallyall 4y ago
        I would buy bathroom fixtures from an installer, and certainly negotiate the number of labor hours, and a discount off retail price of the fixtures themselves. People negotiate the price of a $40 ride to the airport with taxi drivers every day. I negotiated the price of a pair of prescription glasses just yesterday, and they cost less than $300. So... yes?
        • kortilla 4y ago
          So… no, because they would kick you the fuck out.
      • idop 4y ago
        Yes. And you should negotiate at the dealership too.
      • nibbleshifter 4y ago
        Funnily enough, my father does (at the local equivalent). Surprisingly, it almost always works. Even in chain stores for hardware/DIY or white goods (fridges, washing machines, etc) there is almost always leeway for haggling to some degree on higher priced items. He works in the automotive industry, where haggling is basically mandatory - if you don't haggle, you are going to get shafted. Its the same at builders merchants and lumber suppliers.
• manholio 4y ago
  They are both anti-consumer. The regulatory solution is to break the dealers monopoly in selling cars in an area, but also force-open the repair, service and spares part markets which most car manufactures use as profit centers. I don't know the Tesla situation specifically, but some companies use extremely dodgy techniques, like voiding your entire warranty for getting oil changes outside their networks etc.
  • listenallyall 4y ago
    So you want regulators to require Ford, for example, to build multiple dealerships all in the same area, threatening the viability of any single dealership? And if you were on the hook for repairing $50,000+ machines, would you allow the users of those machines to get oil changes and other services just anywhere? Or would you require a minimum level of maintenance and a known quality of parts and fluids?
  • sokoloff 4y ago
    Not in the US they don’t: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warran... Dealerships are paid by the manufacturer for new-car warranty service. My experience is they’ll go out of their way to get a warranty repair job as it pays them well and earns goodwill with the customer for a directly profitable job.
• kortilla 4y ago
  > Non-Tesla customers have virtually infinite options, and someone to actually take care of them. This conflates dealerships with the ability/right to repair. I think dealerships are absolute scum but am completely on-board with enabling 3rd party mechanics to repair vehicles. Dealerships don’t even ensure you don’t have the same vendor lock-in issues (getting modern ICE foreign cars repaired in small cities/towns can be a nightmare).
• sandworm101 4y ago
  >> wholly dependent on a startup Lol. Startup. That crutch is long gone. If you are worth more than Ford and Honda combined, there are no excuses.
  • oblio 4y ago
    I think his point was criticism, not praise. I.e. they're big but they're operating like a (s)crappy startup.
    • sandworm101 4y ago
      A scrappy startup that fields its own infrastructure (chargers) restricts access to that infrastructure by potential competators, supresses home repair and seeks to control or destroy any secondary markets/sales via DRM. Tesla's mentality is more akin to Microsoft than any startup. Startups are generally customer rather than IP-focused.
      • sokoloff 4y ago
        Restricting superchargers to Tesla customers could easily be viewed as an example of being customer-focused.
      • oblio 4y ago
        > Tesla's mentality is more akin to Microsoft than any startup. Startups are generally customer rather than IP-focused. Every serious VC is like Microsoft. What you're talking about are not startups, in my opinion, they're mom and pop stores, the ones that don't grow explosively. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/12/strategy-letter-i-ben-and-jerrys-vs-amazon/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/12/strategy-letter-i-...
• panick21_ 4y ago
  > Tesla customers are a captive audience wholly dependent on a startup with no customer service. People keep saying this but its just not true. Look at their growth in terms of service centers. And their mobile service fleet is the largest in the US, and reduced the need to bring the car in. And their software capability allows for less trips due to software issue. Of course their costumer service is not perfect, but given the growth they had its essentially impossible to keep up with customer service. If you look at other car startups, dealerships also don't fall out of the clear blue sky. Had Telsa built with dealerships they very likely would have had very similar growth problems in terms of service capacity. > Non-Tesla customers have virtually infinite options, and someone to actually take care of them. I suggest you read even the most die-hard Tesla fansites and see just how bad Tesla's anti-dealership strategy is for the customer. Only browsing forums where people specifically to complain is selection bias. And you can find forums like this for lots of dealerships and car companies.