5 ms·

Doesn’t VS do that too though? Also if you’re talking about performance or memory profiling, why are you using a Lisp in the first place?

aidenn0 4y ago
I haven't used VS in a decade, but you needed to restart your program after changing the code. Also, C++ linkage, while far faster than rust isn't the fastest thing, and compilation can be slow too (particularly with the popularity of header-only libraries).
- electroly 4y ago
  Ten years ago, VS already had the "Edit and Continue" feature. But it's not very good compared to what you get in a Lisp environment. It's slow, there are restrictions on where/when it can be used, and it's possible for the edit operation to fail.
- jahewson 4y ago
  No you don’t. Edit and continue in Visual Studio even works with C++ and it worked 20 years ago. It’s improved a lot recently.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- NavinF 4y ago
  > you needed to restart your program after changing the code Wow. No. This is a really basic debugging feature that's been around for over a decade. You can also drag-and-drop the instruction pointer to another line, watch and change variables in real time, etc. I swear, every LISP-related thread has someone touting ancient features as if they are somehow new or unique.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    whats your etc.? in common lisp i can pretty much redefine the WHOLE compiled program at runtime. boasting about redifining variables to someone using lisp is a big LOL moment. as far as interactivity and debugging is concerned, besides smalltalk, its not nearly as good in any other language as it is in common lisp
    - NavinF 4y ago
      Very cool, that's definitely not a common feature in every other debugger /s
      - lispm 4y ago
        Your C++ debugger let's you redefine an arbitrary C++ class in a running program and the existing program and data is changed. /s
      - imaltont 4y ago
        I don't think you know just how modular a Common Lisp environment is. Sure there is some hot reloading that sometimes works and you can change the value of variables, maybe even jump back and forth in your stack trace. Rarely does it do any of them as well as Common Lisp though, where the only thing that doesn't dynamically update when you change something is struct-instances and macros. Functions, variables/values, classes (including instances) can all change as you want it without restarting anything. When something goes wrong, like errors or exceptions, you can modify some code, restart some where on the stack, ignore it and continue execution, insert dummy value or insert a placeholder function. Some form of interactivity with the debugger is common in my experience. The level of interactivity you get with Common Lisp is not.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        it's not :)
  - deleted 4y ago
- fuckstick 4y ago
  > I haven't used VS in a decade, but you needed to restart your program after changing the code. Well then you need to learn your tools better. VS has had Edit and Continue since 2005.
  - NavinF 4y ago
    Vouched your comment. I love how it got flagged for pointing out how that guy's been living in a cave for 17 years lol
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      i think its sad that people are so brave to troll on the internet yet in real life ... :(
      - NavinF 4y ago
        What are you referring to? My username is my real name.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      That's fair. In this case the cave is called "embedded development." I found my old VS CDs and the latest version I own is .NET 2003, so I only missed that feature by a single release. I couldn't truly be a smug lisp weenie without some snide remark about how nice it is that blub developers finally got something not quite as powerful almost 40 years after Lisp could do it, so just consider me to have made such a statement.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    i dont think you know the full limitations of hot reload in VS
    - fuckstick 4y ago
medo-bear 4y ago
> Also if you’re talking about performance or memory profiling, why are you using a Lisp in the first place? common lisp can actually be really good performance-wise. its one of the things that made me switch from using python+c/cpp for my numerical work
silon42 4y ago
Yeah, those are nice features for development, but for actual running code those are anti features usually.
freilanzer 4y ago
> Also if you’re talking about performance or memory profiling, why are you using a Lisp in the first place? Why not? CL is very performant. You'd probably be surprised. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/lisp.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
- medo-bear 4y ago
  SBCL can get much faster results than what i can see there via use of SIMD procedures. i think in some tests it beat rust on spectral norm calculations
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    One can read the paper 'Closing the Performance Gap Between Lisp and C' written by one of the authors of the sb-simd package https://zenodo.org/record/6335627 https://zenodo.org/record/6335627

aidenn0 4y ago

I haven't used VS in a decade, but you needed to restart your program after changing the code. Also, C++ linkage, while far faster than rust isn't the fastest thing, and compilation can be slow too (particularly with the popularity of header-only libraries).

electroly 4y ago
Ten years ago, VS already had the "Edit and Continue" feature. But it's not very good compared to what you get in a Lisp environment. It's slow, there are restrictions on where/when it can be used, and it's possible for the edit operation to fail.
jahewson 4y ago
No you don’t. Edit and continue in Visual Studio even works with C++ and it worked 20 years ago. It’s improved a lot recently.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
NavinF 4y ago
> you needed to restart your program after changing the code Wow. No. This is a really basic debugging feature that's been around for over a decade. You can also drag-and-drop the instruction pointer to another line, watch and change variables in real time, etc. I swear, every LISP-related thread has someone touting ancient features as if they are somehow new or unique.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  whats your etc.? in common lisp i can pretty much redefine the WHOLE compiled program at runtime. boasting about redifining variables to someone using lisp is a big LOL moment. as far as interactivity and debugging is concerned, besides smalltalk, its not nearly as good in any other language as it is in common lisp
  - NavinF 4y ago
    Very cool, that's definitely not a common feature in every other debugger /s
    - lispm 4y ago
      Your C++ debugger let's you redefine an arbitrary C++ class in a running program and the existing program and data is changed. /s
    - imaltont 4y ago
      I don't think you know just how modular a Common Lisp environment is. Sure there is some hot reloading that sometimes works and you can change the value of variables, maybe even jump back and forth in your stack trace. Rarely does it do any of them as well as Common Lisp though, where the only thing that doesn't dynamically update when you change something is struct-instances and macros. Functions, variables/values, classes (including instances) can all change as you want it without restarting anything. When something goes wrong, like errors or exceptions, you can modify some code, restart some where on the stack, ignore it and continue execution, insert dummy value or insert a placeholder function. Some form of interactivity with the debugger is common in my experience. The level of interactivity you get with Common Lisp is not.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      it's not :)
- deleted 4y ago
fuckstick 4y ago
> I haven't used VS in a decade, but you needed to restart your program after changing the code. Well then you need to learn your tools better. VS has had Edit and Continue since 2005.
- NavinF 4y ago
  Vouched your comment. I love how it got flagged for pointing out how that guy's been living in a cave for 17 years lol
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    i think its sad that people are so brave to troll on the internet yet in real life ... :(
    - NavinF 4y ago
      What are you referring to? My username is my real name.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    That's fair. In this case the cave is called "embedded development." I found my old VS CDs and the latest version I own is .NET 2003, so I only missed that feature by a single release. I couldn't truly be a smug lisp weenie without some snide remark about how nice it is that blub developers finally got something not quite as powerful almost 40 years after Lisp could do it, so just consider me to have made such a statement.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  i dont think you know the full limitations of hot reload in VS
  - fuckstick 4y ago

medo-bear 4y ago

> Also if you’re talking about performance or memory profiling, why are you using a Lisp in the first place? common lisp can actually be really good performance-wise. its one of the things that made me switch from using python+c/cpp for my numerical work

silon42 4y ago

Yeah, those are nice features for development, but for actual running code those are anti features usually.

freilanzer 4y ago

> Also if you’re talking about performance or memory profiling, why are you using a Lisp in the first place? Why not? CL is very performant. You'd probably be surprised. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/lisp.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

medo-bear 4y ago
SBCL can get much faster results than what i can see there via use of SIMD procedures. i think in some tests it beat rust on spectral norm calculations
- medo-bear 4y ago
  One can read the paper 'Closing the Performance Gap Between Lisp and C' written by one of the authors of the sb-simd package https://zenodo.org/record/6335627 https://zenodo.org/record/6335627