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As a kiwi let me tell you, there's a lot of revisionist history happening with regards to Maori in progressive circles. theconversation.com is a VERY progressiv

As a kiwi let me tell you, there's a lot of revisionist history happening with regards to Maori in progressive circles. theconversation.com is a VERY progressive publication.

northwest65 4y ago
That's a polite way of putting it.
Gareth321 4y ago
It's absolutely bizarre. I've got a friend working in healthcare in New Zealand and she was given a mandatory class which taught that "Western science" is "imperialist" and that Maori traditional knowledge is "just as valid." For reference, Maori traditional knowledge is stuff like ghosts (taniwha) and spiritual energy (mana). It's like they're taking the noble savage trope to the craziest ends and just running with it; public outcomes be damned. Some really unhinged ideologues are in positions of power right now.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Taniwha aren't ghosts, and mana isn't spiritual energy, you've got it confused with mana in computer games. At least go on Wikipedia for five minutes on this stuff, eh?
  - tux2bsd 4y ago
    Taniwha can be considereed ghosts, in that they are creatures from stories - a leprechaun could be considered a ghost for the same reason.
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      That's a really long bow to draw.
      - heavenlyblue 4y ago
        So what are they then if that's a really long bow to draw?
        PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        It makes sense to just call the creature what it is in its cultural context as opposed to trying to put an ill-fitting separate cultural notion on it, imo. If something is a taniwha it's a taniwha, and if someone is curious what a taniwha is they can look it up themselves and understand its a creature from a specific region's folklore. I feel that trying to rename culturally-specific things that don't have a neat translation, like folkloric beings, is generally always poorly fitting. It's like when the qilin is called a unicorn, when a qilin is a fish-scaled deer or ox with lizardly facial features and no affiliation with femininity or maidenhood. So basically almost nothing like a unicorn.
        tux2bsd 4y ago
        Like I said leprechaun, taniwha, unicorn... all mythical entities - just like ghosts. Isn't it funny how people can draw these various mythical creatures but only after another person has shown them how.
        tux2bsd 4y ago
        Exactly. It is puzzling that those individuals feel the need to attempt to suppress what they elect not to agree with.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Any details on that? Having worked in health in New Zealand in a patient facing role for all my working life, I’ve never heard of such a thing. I’ve worked in public, private and research/academic roles.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  It's also a slap in the face to non western scientists who ended up contributing despite all odds. Imagine telling Satyendranath Bose that the theory of Bose condensates is just as valid as random tribal animism.
- smcleod 4y ago
  Any source for this? I am in contact with a number of health science professionals in New Zealand and they haven't seen anything like this or science denial based on race. Generally you tend to see more science denial from the right wing parties such as the NZ National party. I'm not saying labour or for that matter any political party is "good" - but other than homeopathy and friends - science dentist sits pretty firmly on the right.
  - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
    [dead]
- ihatepython 4y ago
  > Some really unhinged ideologues are in positions of power right now. Yes this may be true, but Jacinda won the election fair and square
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  This is like a plain text version of a Facebook meme. It's political correctness gone mad! https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/09/10/has-political-correctness-gone-too-far https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/09/10/has-politic... > At best, the notion of political correctness having gone too far is intellectually dishonest; a fallacy similar to a straw-man argument or an ad hominem attack. At worst, it serves as a rallying cry to cover up the excesses of the most illiberal in our society.
causi 4y ago
You don't even need to go into progressive circles. Check out https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/09/in-new-zealand-conservation-is-buoyed-by-indigenous-knowledge/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/09/in-new-zealand-conse...
- cgrealy 4y ago
  And? It's not exactly news that European attitudes and practices don't necessarily work that well when transposed to a different ecosystem. Look at Australia for example. The indigenous people figured out thousands of years ago how to manage native bush. I'm not saying we should replace science with traditional knowledge. But indigenous practices are absolutely worthy of study, and can guide science.
  - causi 4y ago
    Two points: Firstly, the article has zero example of the "native knowledge" in question. Secondly, the Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand, arriving a scant couple centuries before Europeans, and had done tremendous damage to the native environment by the time Europeans got there.
    - cgrealy 4y ago
      > Firstly, the article has zero example of the "native knowledge" in question. You mean apart from this link that specifically talks about use tradition harvesting practices and local knowledge to find the kōura to study? https://niwa.co.nz/our-science/freshwater/research-projects/all/restoration-of-aquatic-ecosystems/monitoring_koura/protocol https://niwa.co.nz/our-science/freshwater/research-projects/... > Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand Completely untrue. They are absolutely indigenous to NZ. I'm so tired of this stupid myth being brought up again and again. Yes, Maori arrived in NZ. They were the first people to do so. They are the indigenous people of NZ. Unless you want to argue that to be "indigenous", you literally need to have evolved in that place, which is a nonsense argument as far as humans are concerned.
      - 4y ago
peterashford 4y ago
There's also a lot of reactionary right wing response to anything involving Maori which isn't disparaging or outright racist - as evidenced by the apoplectic reaction from some quarters to merely hearing Maori spoken in the media. A lot of things I hear described as "revisionist" just come down to lack of knowledge of NZ history - eg: claims about "legal" Maori land sales are usually made by people woefully unaware of the actions and conduct of the Maori Land Court.

As a kiwi let me tell you, there's a lot of revisionist history happening with regards to Maori in progressive circles. theconversation.com is a VERY progressive publication.

northwest65 4y ago

That's a polite way of putting it.

Gareth321 4y ago

It's absolutely bizarre. I've got a friend working in healthcare in New Zealand and she was given a mandatory class which taught that "Western science" is "imperialist" and that Maori traditional knowledge is "just as valid." For reference, Maori traditional knowledge is stuff like ghosts (taniwha) and spiritual energy (mana). It's like they're taking the noble savage trope to the craziest ends and just running with it; public outcomes be damned. Some really unhinged ideologues are in positions of power right now.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Taniwha aren't ghosts, and mana isn't spiritual energy, you've got it confused with mana in computer games. At least go on Wikipedia for five minutes on this stuff, eh?
- tux2bsd 4y ago
  Taniwha can be considereed ghosts, in that they are creatures from stories - a leprechaun could be considered a ghost for the same reason.
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    That's a really long bow to draw.
    - heavenlyblue 4y ago
      So what are they then if that's a really long bow to draw?
      - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        It makes sense to just call the creature what it is in its cultural context as opposed to trying to put an ill-fitting separate cultural notion on it, imo. If something is a taniwha it's a taniwha, and if someone is curious what a taniwha is they can look it up themselves and understand its a creature from a specific region's folklore. I feel that trying to rename culturally-specific things that don't have a neat translation, like folkloric beings, is generally always poorly fitting. It's like when the qilin is called a unicorn, when a qilin is a fish-scaled deer or ox with lizardly facial features and no affiliation with femininity or maidenhood. So basically almost nothing like a unicorn.
        tux2bsd 4y ago
        Like I said leprechaun, taniwha, unicorn... all mythical entities - just like ghosts. Isn't it funny how people can draw these various mythical creatures but only after another person has shown them how.
      - tux2bsd 4y ago
        Exactly. It is puzzling that those individuals feel the need to attempt to suppress what they elect not to agree with.
lostlogin 4y ago
Any details on that? Having worked in health in New Zealand in a patient facing role for all my working life, I’ve never heard of such a thing. I’ve worked in public, private and research/academic roles.
cuteboy19 4y ago
It's also a slap in the face to non western scientists who ended up contributing despite all odds. Imagine telling Satyendranath Bose that the theory of Bose condensates is just as valid as random tribal animism.
smcleod 4y ago
Any source for this? I am in contact with a number of health science professionals in New Zealand and they haven't seen anything like this or science denial based on race. Generally you tend to see more science denial from the right wing parties such as the NZ National party. I'm not saying labour or for that matter any political party is "good" - but other than homeopathy and friends - science dentist sits pretty firmly on the right.
- Slava_Propanei 4y ago
  [dead]
ihatepython 4y ago
> Some really unhinged ideologues are in positions of power right now. Yes this may be true, but Jacinda won the election fair and square
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
This is like a plain text version of a Facebook meme. It's political correctness gone mad! https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/09/10/has-political-correctness-gone-too-far https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/09/10/has-politic... > At best, the notion of political correctness having gone too far is intellectually dishonest; a fallacy similar to a straw-man argument or an ad hominem attack. At worst, it serves as a rallying cry to cover up the excesses of the most illiberal in our society.

causi 4y ago

You don't even need to go into progressive circles. Check out https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/09/in-new-zealand-conservation-is-buoyed-by-indigenous-knowledge/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/09/in-new-zealand-conse...

cgrealy 4y ago
And? It's not exactly news that European attitudes and practices don't necessarily work that well when transposed to a different ecosystem. Look at Australia for example. The indigenous people figured out thousands of years ago how to manage native bush. I'm not saying we should replace science with traditional knowledge. But indigenous practices are absolutely worthy of study, and can guide science.
- causi 4y ago
  Two points: Firstly, the article has zero example of the "native knowledge" in question. Secondly, the Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand, arriving a scant couple centuries before Europeans, and had done tremendous damage to the native environment by the time Europeans got there.
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    > Firstly, the article has zero example of the "native knowledge" in question. You mean apart from this link that specifically talks about use tradition harvesting practices and local knowledge to find the kōura to study? https://niwa.co.nz/our-science/freshwater/research-projects/all/restoration-of-aquatic-ecosystems/monitoring_koura/protocol https://niwa.co.nz/our-science/freshwater/research-projects/... > Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand Completely untrue. They are absolutely indigenous to NZ. I'm so tired of this stupid myth being brought up again and again. Yes, Maori arrived in NZ. They were the first people to do so. They are the indigenous people of NZ. Unless you want to argue that to be "indigenous", you literally need to have evolved in that place, which is a nonsense argument as far as humans are concerned.
    - 4y ago

peterashford 4y ago

There's also a lot of reactionary right wing response to anything involving Maori which isn't disparaging or outright racist - as evidenced by the apoplectic reaction from some quarters to merely hearing Maori spoken in the media. A lot of things I hear described as "revisionist" just come down to lack of knowledge of NZ history - eg: claims about "legal" Maori land sales are usually made by people woefully unaware of the actions and conduct of the Maori Land Court.