6 ms·

Fencer Matthias Behr takes in relatives of the opponent he stabbed (2022)

109 points by tianqi 4y ago

tianqi 4y ago
This tragic accident in 1982 changed the sport of fencing forever. As a fencer, all of our equipment today has been changed by the accident. This is why I have been so familiar with the accident long before. Today I was overwhelmed with emotion when I read this learning that a story like this happened, 40 years later.
- pxmpxm 4y ago
  Odd coincidence, but I just learned about the accident this weekend, going down a wikipedia rabbit hole (as one does)
- quartesixte 4y ago
  This accident was cited when I began fencing. I have seen many other instructors tell it to their beginners. I repeat this story to anyone also wondering "why all the gear?." Because people die.
greedo 4y ago
I had just started fencing in college in the Fall of 1982, and the gear we had was definitely not safe in hindsight. Our coach was scrupulous about safety, but how can you cope with a blade break from carbon steel? Kevlar etc wasn't a thing back then as I recall. The first time we learned flèche was exhilarating, but now seems like we were pushing our luck. And we were a D2 school without a lot of high quality fencers.
- madengr 4y ago
  A guy in the next strip had his mask puncture and the blade (saber) went into his mouth, and punctured through his pallet into his sinus. Could have been a lot worse. This guy never let his mask dry, storing it in his bag, thus even the stainless will corrode. Thus mask testing every tournament.
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    Clueless question: how exactly do you test a mask in fencing?
    - madengr 4y ago
      A sharp punch (like a center punch prior to drilling). It is pushed in with a certain force and the mask mesh can only spread so much; there is a groove on the neck of the punch that defines the depth limit. You do this on a few areas of the mask then date the side of the mask to indicate it was tested.
      - webmobdev 4y ago
        Wouldn't repeated testing (punching etc.) itself weaken the mask?
        beckingz 4y ago
        Yes. That said, if the testing causes the mask to weaken enough to fail, that means it's time to replace the mask.
        williamscales 4y ago
        To add to that, the mask is in some sense "punch tested" nearly every time you use it. Far better for it to fail in a test.
        quartesixte 4y ago
        Agree. One punch test is nothing compared to the 20 - 30 times you might take one to the face (sometimes intentionally) in a single bout. Absolutely do not want that thing failing.
        sigstoat 4y ago
        last i fenced they also had manufacture dates printed prominently and were considered expired after a few years. they’re wear items; it is their job to take the damage so you don’t.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Modern polymer textiles are a beast. One time, my fencing coach had to replace the clip for the electric connector at the back of his jacket which had worn out and broken off. The tailor couldn't puncture it to sew in a new clip, and had to get some specialized equipment to perform the repaier. Accidents can still happen, though, especially if a broken weapon slides into the sleeve. But still way safer than in the past.
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    https://fencing.net/66/ukrainian-junior-dies-after-accident/ https://fencing.net/66/ukrainian-junior-dies-after-accident/ Always wear your plastron!
- dwohnitmok 4y ago
  What have been the major advancements in safety equipment since the 80s? You mention Kevlar (although I imagine it's more than that since Kevlar vests if I recall are not stab-proof). Have there been any others?
  - hardwaregeek 4y ago
    Most equipment doesn't use Kevlar anymore due to its weight, but they use similarly strong materials. There's also testing done at every major competition for mask and gloves. At the international level fencing blades are made from maraging steel which is fairly durable and breaks in a cleaner fashion. Freak accidents can happen but with the right precautions it's very unlikely.
    - doublerabbit 4y ago
      I've managed to snap a sabre blade on a parry. It just cut in two and fell to the ground, was impressed. Felt bad for the guy as it was his new blade bought off ebay. Although saying that I need get back in to the sport.
      - sigstoat 4y ago
        > I've managed to snap a sabre blade on a parry. It just cut in two and fell to the ground, was impressed. best time to have it break, most folks will notice the balance change immediately. i had someone snap their blade off on my chest, and keep going. they went right through my lamé, but were stopped by the jacket. having a patch in my lamé right over my heart was helpful when convincing others to take safety seriously.
      - quartesixte 4y ago
        >Felt bad for the guy as it was his new blade bought off ebay. Although saying that I need get back in to the sport. Non Fencer: So what is fencing like? Fencer: lots of electrical work and buying blades...
cortesoft 4y ago
I feel like this headline is intentionally misleading.
ruph123 4y ago
So odd, I never expected for olympic fencing to be (or have been) actually dangerous. It always looks like the blade can bend at insane angles and that it could never harm anyone. A lot of unfortunate circumstances must have come together to allow this to happen.
- tianqi 4y ago
  In fact, you are right, the mandatory regulations proposed for equipment after this tragic incident did turn fencing into one of the safest rival sports later on.
- quartesixte 4y ago
  The blade bending at insane angles is the result of post-accident engineering to make sure this doesn't happen again at international levels. Training foils and beginner foils are made of cheaper steel that is a lot stiffer and breaks a lot sharper -- you are not allowed to fence in certain levels of competition with them at all. Also, historical swords also could get very floppy with just the right amount of force...the movies lie to you somewhat.
  - inawarminister 4y ago
    Hehe, Joachim Meyer (1570) showcased techniques where he used the floppiness of his longsword (trainer; Federschwert) to cut around blocks and guards. Here's the technique if anyone wants to see that. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7yZpqalEOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7yZpqalEOg
coupdejarnac 4y ago
I've fenced on and off for 20 years, and the worst injury I've seen is bruises, thank goodness. My only concern these days is the blade breaking and sliding under the throat guard.
- charles_f 4y ago
  I cracked a rib twice foiling, and sliced the interior of my elbow open through the vest with an épée. The fabric didn't fail but the blade still pressured hard enough to get the skin open. Still have the scar. All three incidents against beginners who were far too enthusiastic, and coming way too hard and way too close.
  - metal_am 4y ago
    Cracked ribs? That's gotta be the other person running into you, right?
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      You're putting the mass of an entire human, with the force of a lunge, on an area smaller than a dime. There is a lot of force getting transferred during impact. Yes, the blade will flex to absorb some of that, but only some.
    - charles_f 4y ago
      One was this very classic beginner move - you break both their time and their distance, suddenly they're wa too close, you fend yourself off time, and rather than trying any escaping maneuver as someone trained would, they just counter attack ; with short distance and your full weight already committed to the fente, not great. Teachable moment for everyone. An easy point to make, but risky on the safety angle. The other I don't remember precisely, just that it was a tall brute who was just coming at me. Avoided him with cause every time after
  - stormcode 4y ago
    Beginners are the most dangerous to fence against in my experience. They don't move like you expect, they flail and flourish and smack you in weird spots with the flat of the blade. All the worst bruises I have gotten have been fencing newbies. It isn't their fault, they are still learning. But owww.
khazhoux 4y ago
Everyone is talking about the "blade breaking" as a dangerous thing. Can someone please explain?
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Based on almost zero specifically relevant knowledge - The blade of a foil is a long, flexible metal rod. It is dull at the end, and it is expected to flex very heavily in normal use. If it snaps, I assume you end up with a short metal rod with a sharp, jagged tip. (And the part that used to be the tip will go flying off somewhere.) That would be dangerous for the same reason a window breaking is dangerous.
- glfharris 4y ago
  The foils can break, leaving a sharp tip that is more able to pierce protective clothing.
  - AzzieElbab 4y ago
    the blade doesn't event have to be sharp to go through a mask. I had my mask pierced by a rapier with safety tip still attached. Hell, a blade may break while bending against a mask.
    - tianqi 4y ago
      That sounds horrible, I hope you were okay. Also it's hard to imagine. What brand and model of mask were you wearing?
      - AzzieElbab 4y ago
        Some very rusty made in the ussr brand
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  A blade is completely blunt until it breaks and then it’s extremely sharp.
737min 4y ago
https://www.newsweek.com/stabbed-eye-fencing-sword-accident-1638883 https://www.newsweek.com/stabbed-eye-fencing-sword-accident-... More recent incident

109 points by tianqi 4y ago

This tragic accident in 1982 changed the sport of fencing forever. As a fencer, all of our equipment today has been changed by the accident. This is why I have been so familiar with the accident long before. Today I was overwhelmed with emotion when I read this learning that a story like this happened, 40 years later.

pxmpxm 4y ago
Odd coincidence, but I just learned about the accident this weekend, going down a wikipedia rabbit hole (as one does)
quartesixte 4y ago
This accident was cited when I began fencing. I have seen many other instructors tell it to their beginners. I repeat this story to anyone also wondering "why all the gear?." Because people die.

greedo 4y ago

I had just started fencing in college in the Fall of 1982, and the gear we had was definitely not safe in hindsight. Our coach was scrupulous about safety, but how can you cope with a blade break from carbon steel? Kevlar etc wasn't a thing back then as I recall. The first time we learned flèche was exhilarating, but now seems like we were pushing our luck. And we were a D2 school without a lot of high quality fencers.

madengr 4y ago
A guy in the next strip had his mask puncture and the blade (saber) went into his mouth, and punctured through his pallet into his sinus. Could have been a lot worse. This guy never let his mask dry, storing it in his bag, thus even the stainless will corrode. Thus mask testing every tournament.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Clueless question: how exactly do you test a mask in fencing?
  - madengr 4y ago
    A sharp punch (like a center punch prior to drilling). It is pushed in with a certain force and the mask mesh can only spread so much; there is a groove on the neck of the punch that defines the depth limit. You do this on a few areas of the mask then date the side of the mask to indicate it was tested.
    - webmobdev 4y ago
      Wouldn't repeated testing (punching etc.) itself weaken the mask?
      - beckingz 4y ago
        Yes. That said, if the testing causes the mask to weaken enough to fail, that means it's time to replace the mask.
        williamscales 4y ago
        To add to that, the mask is in some sense "punch tested" nearly every time you use it. Far better for it to fail in a test.
        quartesixte 4y ago
        Agree. One punch test is nothing compared to the 20 - 30 times you might take one to the face (sometimes intentionally) in a single bout. Absolutely do not want that thing failing.
      - sigstoat 4y ago
        last i fenced they also had manufacture dates printed prominently and were considered expired after a few years. they’re wear items; it is their job to take the damage so you don’t.
Manuel_D 4y ago
Modern polymer textiles are a beast. One time, my fencing coach had to replace the clip for the electric connector at the back of his jacket which had worn out and broken off. The tailor couldn't puncture it to sew in a new clip, and had to get some specialized equipment to perform the repaier. Accidents can still happen, though, especially if a broken weapon slides into the sleeve. But still way safer than in the past.
- quartesixte 4y ago
  https://fencing.net/66/ukrainian-junior-dies-after-accident/ https://fencing.net/66/ukrainian-junior-dies-after-accident/ Always wear your plastron!
dwohnitmok 4y ago
What have been the major advancements in safety equipment since the 80s? You mention Kevlar (although I imagine it's more than that since Kevlar vests if I recall are not stab-proof). Have there been any others?
- hardwaregeek 4y ago
  Most equipment doesn't use Kevlar anymore due to its weight, but they use similarly strong materials. There's also testing done at every major competition for mask and gloves. At the international level fencing blades are made from maraging steel which is fairly durable and breaks in a cleaner fashion. Freak accidents can happen but with the right precautions it's very unlikely.
  - doublerabbit 4y ago
    I've managed to snap a sabre blade on a parry. It just cut in two and fell to the ground, was impressed. Felt bad for the guy as it was his new blade bought off ebay. Although saying that I need get back in to the sport.
    - sigstoat 4y ago
      > I've managed to snap a sabre blade on a parry. It just cut in two and fell to the ground, was impressed. best time to have it break, most folks will notice the balance change immediately. i had someone snap their blade off on my chest, and keep going. they went right through my lamé, but were stopped by the jacket. having a patch in my lamé right over my heart was helpful when convincing others to take safety seriously.
    - quartesixte 4y ago
      >Felt bad for the guy as it was his new blade bought off ebay. Although saying that I need get back in to the sport. Non Fencer: So what is fencing like? Fencer: lots of electrical work and buying blades...

cortesoft 4y ago

I feel like this headline is intentionally misleading.

ruph123 4y ago

So odd, I never expected for olympic fencing to be (or have been) actually dangerous. It always looks like the blade can bend at insane angles and that it could never harm anyone. A lot of unfortunate circumstances must have come together to allow this to happen.

tianqi 4y ago
In fact, you are right, the mandatory regulations proposed for equipment after this tragic incident did turn fencing into one of the safest rival sports later on.
quartesixte 4y ago
The blade bending at insane angles is the result of post-accident engineering to make sure this doesn't happen again at international levels. Training foils and beginner foils are made of cheaper steel that is a lot stiffer and breaks a lot sharper -- you are not allowed to fence in certain levels of competition with them at all. Also, historical swords also could get very floppy with just the right amount of force...the movies lie to you somewhat.
- inawarminister 4y ago
  Hehe, Joachim Meyer (1570) showcased techniques where he used the floppiness of his longsword (trainer; Federschwert) to cut around blocks and guards. Here's the technique if anyone wants to see that. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7yZpqalEOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7yZpqalEOg

coupdejarnac 4y ago

I've fenced on and off for 20 years, and the worst injury I've seen is bruises, thank goodness. My only concern these days is the blade breaking and sliding under the throat guard.

charles_f 4y ago
I cracked a rib twice foiling, and sliced the interior of my elbow open through the vest with an épée. The fabric didn't fail but the blade still pressured hard enough to get the skin open. Still have the scar. All three incidents against beginners who were far too enthusiastic, and coming way too hard and way too close.
- metal_am 4y ago
  Cracked ribs? That's gotta be the other person running into you, right?
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    You're putting the mass of an entire human, with the force of a lunge, on an area smaller than a dime. There is a lot of force getting transferred during impact. Yes, the blade will flex to absorb some of that, but only some.
  - charles_f 4y ago
    One was this very classic beginner move - you break both their time and their distance, suddenly they're wa too close, you fend yourself off time, and rather than trying any escaping maneuver as someone trained would, they just counter attack ; with short distance and your full weight already committed to the fente, not great. Teachable moment for everyone. An easy point to make, but risky on the safety angle. The other I don't remember precisely, just that it was a tall brute who was just coming at me. Avoided him with cause every time after
- stormcode 4y ago
  Beginners are the most dangerous to fence against in my experience. They don't move like you expect, they flail and flourish and smack you in weird spots with the flat of the blade. All the worst bruises I have gotten have been fencing newbies. It isn't their fault, they are still learning. But owww.

khazhoux 4y ago

Everyone is talking about the "blade breaking" as a dangerous thing. Can someone please explain?

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Based on almost zero specifically relevant knowledge - The blade of a foil is a long, flexible metal rod. It is dull at the end, and it is expected to flex very heavily in normal use. If it snaps, I assume you end up with a short metal rod with a sharp, jagged tip. (And the part that used to be the tip will go flying off somewhere.) That would be dangerous for the same reason a window breaking is dangerous.
glfharris 4y ago
The foils can break, leaving a sharp tip that is more able to pierce protective clothing.
- AzzieElbab 4y ago
  the blade doesn't event have to be sharp to go through a mask. I had my mask pierced by a rapier with safety tip still attached. Hell, a blade may break while bending against a mask.
  - tianqi 4y ago
    That sounds horrible, I hope you were okay. Also it's hard to imagine. What brand and model of mask were you wearing?
    - AzzieElbab 4y ago
      Some very rusty made in the ussr brand
chrisseaton 4y ago
A blade is completely blunt until it breaks and then it’s extremely sharp.

737min 4y ago

https://www.newsweek.com/stabbed-eye-fencing-sword-accident-1638883 https://www.newsweek.com/stabbed-eye-fencing-sword-accident-... More recent incident