4 ms·

Awaiting the lawsuit against him because of the obvious constructive dismissal going on

by dymk 4y ago

gruez 4y ago
On what grounds? Most of US is at will employment, so the worst that he's subject to is something like california's WARN act which requires 60 days notice. However, AFAIK the employees are still receiving a paycheck, just that they have nothing to do and are locked out of the company's systems.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  I just want to say that this attitude towards employment will likely be part of the eventual downfall of the USA. The reason ? It's too risky to tell your boss the truth so when things are going bad so it's easier just not to say anything, I noticed my American colleagues will often not say anything to "the grand leader", they will maybe even encourage stupidity. Where as when I worked in Europe, that doesn't happen. Not claiming those places are super powers, but I think this "shoot from the hip" American attitude towards staff will be it's undoing.
  - missingcolours 4y ago
    Nah. Everywhere I've ever worked, you can tell any boss things they don't want to hear. What you have to do is do it respectfully. I've told directors and VPs multiple levels up from me that I thought they were wrong about something in large meetings. I said it to their face and respectfully, and that was fine. As long as you understand your place and don't publicly trash your boss, there's normally no problem. The tweet in question here was... not that.
    - bmitc 4y ago
      Was his original tweet actually disrespectful? His CEO is openly ridiculing his own company's engineering teams, and he simply said that what Musk said was wrong. The second tweet had some more sass to it to match the tweet he was responding to, but it also wasn't all that bad. He points out the above in that Musk should be bringing these things up internally rather than publicly belittling his own employees with what appears to be incorrect information.
    - bamboozled 4y ago
      It's not about that, it's that you have to think and put a lot of mental energy into "being respectful" rather than just being straight forwards and direct. You have to wait for the right time etc. Giving feedback has higher risk and cost to it than it would otherwise be so why even do it? While I'm not claiming it's an immediate crisis, I think it is and will continue to become a net long term loss for corporate American culture. Musk is now teaching the world you can just fire people for saying anything you don't like without even a phone call, it will only make people more apprehensive to talk more freely.
      - mathlover2 4y ago
        I think more than anything else Musk is teaching people to never apply to any company he owns under any circumstances. This isn't going to be treated as a role model for managers. It's going to be a model of exactly what not to do as a CEO, not just on HR issues, but everything else. I seriously don't see Twitter ever being able to hire a worker of any significant skill level ever again.
      - blooalien 4y ago
        Funny that Musk was touting "free speech" as one of his reasons for wanting to buy Twitter in the first place, innit?
        bamboozled 4y ago
        Very clear at this stage that had nothing to do with his real intentions.
      - randy909 4y ago
        Being respectful and just being straight forward and direct are the same thing as long as you're not being an asshole while being straight forward and direct. I do agree that it can take extra mental energy to translate "this idea is stupid" to "the downside of this approach is..." if you are prone to thinking in a harsh, cynical voice (I'm guilty of it). That is energy well spent.
    - devwastaken 4y ago
      Looked pretty respectful to me. Musk was throwing devs under the bus, a dev politely corrected them.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    It’s been this way in the USA a long, long time for non-Union jobs (maybe since our founding? I don’t know). So whether you agree or disagree with employment-at-will, I don’t see how it will be the downfall of the USA given the history.
    - bamboozled 4y ago
      But it would be a better place if people could speak more freely without fear or being fired and without better social safety nets.
    - blooalien 4y ago
      Rest assured you're absolutely right in that this one thing won't be the downfall of anything. It may well contribute in some part to the eventual downfall of certain people / things, however…
  - db48x 4y ago
    Doubtful. The whole idea is an overgeneralization. Companies in the US fail all the time because of bad bosses, or bad managers. A boss that can’t listen to their employees eventually craters and ends up somewhere they can’t do much damage. Night manager at Arby’s or the local Foodway, for example. It’s not going to bring down society.
    - bamboozled 4y ago
      On the other hand, Musk seems like a child yet he is in charge of some pretty important things in the USA such as space technology?
      - db48x 4y ago
        So what? We all know that appearances are not the best guide. The fact that he doesn’t have to spend 8 hours a day in a SpaceX office means that he has hired capable people to run it, and that he listens to them. That puts him ahead of most of the bad bosses in the world.
- dymk 4y ago
  That’s not how constructive dismissal works. If your company decides they want to soft-layoff, they can’t just make it miserable and hope people quit. They’ll be sued, and courts will find the departures equivalent to a layoff if enough people leave.

Awaiting the lawsuit against him because of the obvious constructive dismissal going on

by dymk 4y ago

Awaiting the lawsuit against him because of the obvious constructive dismissal going on

On what grounds? Most of US is at will employment, so the worst that he's subject to is something like california's WARN act which requires 60 days notice. However, AFAIK the employees are still receiving a paycheck, just that they have nothing to do and are locked out of the company's systems.

bamboozled 4y ago
I just want to say that this attitude towards employment will likely be part of the eventual downfall of the USA. The reason ? It's too risky to tell your boss the truth so when things are going bad so it's easier just not to say anything, I noticed my American colleagues will often not say anything to "the grand leader", they will maybe even encourage stupidity. Where as when I worked in Europe, that doesn't happen. Not claiming those places are super powers, but I think this "shoot from the hip" American attitude towards staff will be it's undoing.
- missingcolours 4y ago
  Nah. Everywhere I've ever worked, you can tell any boss things they don't want to hear. What you have to do is do it respectfully. I've told directors and VPs multiple levels up from me that I thought they were wrong about something in large meetings. I said it to their face and respectfully, and that was fine. As long as you understand your place and don't publicly trash your boss, there's normally no problem. The tweet in question here was... not that.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    Was his original tweet actually disrespectful? His CEO is openly ridiculing his own company's engineering teams, and he simply said that what Musk said was wrong. The second tweet had some more sass to it to match the tweet he was responding to, but it also wasn't all that bad. He points out the above in that Musk should be bringing these things up internally rather than publicly belittling his own employees with what appears to be incorrect information.
  - bamboozled 4y ago
    It's not about that, it's that you have to think and put a lot of mental energy into "being respectful" rather than just being straight forwards and direct. You have to wait for the right time etc. Giving feedback has higher risk and cost to it than it would otherwise be so why even do it? While I'm not claiming it's an immediate crisis, I think it is and will continue to become a net long term loss for corporate American culture. Musk is now teaching the world you can just fire people for saying anything you don't like without even a phone call, it will only make people more apprehensive to talk more freely.
    - mathlover2 4y ago
      I think more than anything else Musk is teaching people to never apply to any company he owns under any circumstances. This isn't going to be treated as a role model for managers. It's going to be a model of exactly what not to do as a CEO, not just on HR issues, but everything else. I seriously don't see Twitter ever being able to hire a worker of any significant skill level ever again.
    - blooalien 4y ago
      Funny that Musk was touting "free speech" as one of his reasons for wanting to buy Twitter in the first place, innit?
      - bamboozled 4y ago
        Very clear at this stage that had nothing to do with his real intentions.
    - randy909 4y ago
      Being respectful and just being straight forward and direct are the same thing as long as you're not being an asshole while being straight forward and direct. I do agree that it can take extra mental energy to translate "this idea is stupid" to "the downside of this approach is..." if you are prone to thinking in a harsh, cynical voice (I'm guilty of it). That is energy well spent.
  - devwastaken 4y ago
    Looked pretty respectful to me. Musk was throwing devs under the bus, a dev politely corrected them.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  It’s been this way in the USA a long, long time for non-Union jobs (maybe since our founding? I don’t know). So whether you agree or disagree with employment-at-will, I don’t see how it will be the downfall of the USA given the history.
  - bamboozled 4y ago
    But it would be a better place if people could speak more freely without fear or being fired and without better social safety nets.
  - blooalien 4y ago
    Rest assured you're absolutely right in that this one thing won't be the downfall of anything. It may well contribute in some part to the eventual downfall of certain people / things, however…
- db48x 4y ago
  Doubtful. The whole idea is an overgeneralization. Companies in the US fail all the time because of bad bosses, or bad managers. A boss that can’t listen to their employees eventually craters and ends up somewhere they can’t do much damage. Night manager at Arby’s or the local Foodway, for example. It’s not going to bring down society.
  - bamboozled 4y ago
    On the other hand, Musk seems like a child yet he is in charge of some pretty important things in the USA such as space technology?
    - db48x 4y ago
      So what? We all know that appearances are not the best guide. The fact that he doesn’t have to spend 8 hours a day in a SpaceX office means that he has hired capable people to run it, and that he listens to them. That puts him ahead of most of the bad bosses in the world.
dymk 4y ago
That’s not how constructive dismissal works. If your company decides they want to soft-layoff, they can’t just make it miserable and hope people quit. They’ll be sued, and courts will find the departures equivalent to a layoff if enough people leave.