4 ms·

people pay in, and that money is spent on (making the project look good|delivering a yield|paying execs|propping up a trading company|whatever) and then the mon

people pay in, and that money is spent on (making the project look good|delivering a yield|paying execs|propping up a trading company|whatever) and then the money is not there anymore for withdrawals. That's the essence of a Ponzi scheme and this meets that criterion. Sure, there's fraudlent accounting, and wash trading, and other bullshit, but that's all just the some and mirrors that allows the ponzi scheme to work.

basch 4y ago
thats not what a ponzi scheme is. a ponzi scheme reports a profit, and pays out that profit to early investors. (the payout is actually later investors inflow.) the only one of the ones you mentioned that is actually a ponzi scheme is the "delivering a yield." its the yield delivery, aka dividend, that makes it a ponzi scheme, not just fraudulently running away with the money. the scheme works because people get paid out regularly, and have no reason to believe their money isnt working for them.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  You are wrong. In a ponzi people are often encouraged to reinvest their gains. You only take the money of new investors to pay out early investors if really necessary (that is to maintain the illusion that the money is still there) otherwise you use the money for something else or yourself. exactly how crypto works.
  - felipellrocha 4y ago
    Just because that is a common feature of ponzi schemes, that alone doesn't make it a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme takes some sort of initial investment from new investors and gives that back to old investors in form of "return". Meaning, the system itself doesn't rely on any sort of growth in order to return, only the sign up of new people into the scheme, which is why they can seemingly deliver such reliable returns to early investors. Eventually you run out of new people to sign up, and the entire house of cards falls apart very quickly.
    - Yizahi 4y ago
      Every self printed clown bucks scheme is a standalone Ponzi by definition. Early gamblers buy first batch of clown bucks, then hype the price, then next group of gambles buy slightly more expensive clown bucks, then hype, then then buy, in a loop, and each new buyer funnels his money onto enriching early gamblers. The only difference is that FTX has at least 3 Ponzis running - FTT, SRM, MAPS. We can call it a Ponzi CDO of sorts :) but it's still a Ponzi. Sure, they did some exchanging on the side, some investing or donating, but the main business was printing and selling clown bucks.
      - basch 4y ago
        >Early gamblers buy first batch of clown bucks, then hype the price, then next group of gambles buy slightly more expensive clown bucks, then hype, then then buy, in a loop That is not a ponzi scheme. The selling of the asset to the next sucker, and the price going up, and each person in line getting to shave some profit off the next person is not a ponzi scheme. (It's also exactly how non dividend end paying stocks work. The stock is only worth what the next person is willing to pay.) Youve described a pump and dump. A ponzi scheme has a mechanism to give a fraudulent "RETURN" to investors that HOLD. That is the definition. None of the clow bucks are claiming that the underlying product is producing its own profit, the only value is the holding of the asset itself. Everyone is now using ponzi to mean any sort of scheme including ponzi, pump and dump, etc. But thats not what the word ponzi actually means. And when you say things like "by definition" we need to stick to the actual definition.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hnfong 4y ago
  https://www.vanguardngr.com/2022/11/ftx-offers-up-to-8-apy-on-users-assets/ https://www.vanguardngr.com/2022/11/ftx-offers-up-to-8-apy-o... """ You can now earn yield on your crypto purchases and deposits, as well as your fiat balances, in your FTX app! By opting in and participating in staking your supported assets in your FTX account, you’ll be eligible to earn up to 8% APY on your assets. """ How does one provide 8% yield on BTC I have no idea. To me, FTX is a classic Ponzi scheme according to the most uncontroversial definitions of "Ponzi scheme".

basch 4y ago

thats not what a ponzi scheme is. a ponzi scheme reports a profit, and pays out that profit to early investors. (the payout is actually later investors inflow.) the only one of the ones you mentioned that is actually a ponzi scheme is the "delivering a yield." its the yield delivery, aka dividend, that makes it a ponzi scheme, not just fraudulently running away with the money. the scheme works because people get paid out regularly, and have no reason to believe their money isnt working for them.

Silverback_VII 4y ago
You are wrong. In a ponzi people are often encouraged to reinvest their gains. You only take the money of new investors to pay out early investors if really necessary (that is to maintain the illusion that the money is still there) otherwise you use the money for something else or yourself. exactly how crypto works.
- felipellrocha 4y ago
  Just because that is a common feature of ponzi schemes, that alone doesn't make it a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme takes some sort of initial investment from new investors and gives that back to old investors in form of "return". Meaning, the system itself doesn't rely on any sort of growth in order to return, only the sign up of new people into the scheme, which is why they can seemingly deliver such reliable returns to early investors. Eventually you run out of new people to sign up, and the entire house of cards falls apart very quickly.
  - Yizahi 4y ago
    Every self printed clown bucks scheme is a standalone Ponzi by definition. Early gamblers buy first batch of clown bucks, then hype the price, then next group of gambles buy slightly more expensive clown bucks, then hype, then then buy, in a loop, and each new buyer funnels his money onto enriching early gamblers. The only difference is that FTX has at least 3 Ponzis running - FTT, SRM, MAPS. We can call it a Ponzi CDO of sorts :) but it's still a Ponzi. Sure, they did some exchanging on the side, some investing or donating, but the main business was printing and selling clown bucks.
    - basch 4y ago
      >Early gamblers buy first batch of clown bucks, then hype the price, then next group of gambles buy slightly more expensive clown bucks, then hype, then then buy, in a loop That is not a ponzi scheme. The selling of the asset to the next sucker, and the price going up, and each person in line getting to shave some profit off the next person is not a ponzi scheme. (It's also exactly how non dividend end paying stocks work. The stock is only worth what the next person is willing to pay.) Youve described a pump and dump. A ponzi scheme has a mechanism to give a fraudulent "RETURN" to investors that HOLD. That is the definition. None of the clow bucks are claiming that the underlying product is producing its own profit, the only value is the holding of the asset itself. Everyone is now using ponzi to mean any sort of scheme including ponzi, pump and dump, etc. But thats not what the word ponzi actually means. And when you say things like "by definition" we need to stick to the actual definition.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hnfong 4y ago
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2022/11/ftx-offers-up-to-8-apy-on-users-assets/ https://www.vanguardngr.com/2022/11/ftx-offers-up-to-8-apy-o... """ You can now earn yield on your crypto purchases and deposits, as well as your fiat balances, in your FTX app! By opting in and participating in staking your supported assets in your FTX account, you’ll be eligible to earn up to 8% APY on your assets. """ How does one provide 8% yield on BTC I have no idea. To me, FTX is a classic Ponzi scheme according to the most uncontroversial definitions of "Ponzi scheme".