10 ms·

Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?

by jjcon 4y ago

walterbell 4y ago
Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.
- jjcon 4y ago
  Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
  - koolba 4y ago
    New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
    - exodust 4y ago
      "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
  - sfusato 4y ago
    Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
  - pandeiro 4y ago
    University of California "With this recommendation, the UC Vaccine policy now requires all staff and students to get the bivalent booster, when eligible" [1] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination
- Grim-444 4y ago
  Flu shots also use a vaccine mechanism that's been known/used for decades and is not a first of its kind in history mRNA treatment. I feel like this difference would lead towards one requiring more testing than the other, at least in a rational society. [Edit] For anyone that wants to downvote this, please explain what I said that was untrue. Flu shots in the US have never been mRNA based. Covid shots in the US are mRNA based. Before covid, there was never at any point in history an mRNA based vaccine rolled out to the public.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    I didn't downvote you but if the 12 billion or so COVID vaccine doses issued world wide don't convince you that the vaccine is statistically safe, at least as safe as something as common as paracetamol or aspirin, then what amount of testing would convince you?
    - yonaguska 4y ago
      It doesn't convince me because I do not know anyone personally that has had an adverse reaction to aspirin, that didn't also overdose on it. Meanwhile, I know several people that have had adverse reactions to the vaccine ranging from issues with periods, to heart problems, to death. No one is seriously tracking the adverse reactions, we've handed that off to the companies that produced the vaccines. And doctors are afraid to or don't care to raise concerns either. The vaccines are as statistically safe for me as COVID is for my age and health profile. And the vaccine makes no guarantee that I won't still catch COVID. Why would I double my risk when I've caught COVID, and it was nothing for me.
      - salad-tycoon 4y ago
        Just a nurse, this is true. I’ve been running a vaccine clinic. Very few to none are putting in adverse events to the proper place, there are competing data banks to report adverse reactions to (many of which are black boxes, data goes in and nothing comes out), doctors are dismissive, and in the few cases they do admit x,y,z caused by vaccine it is documented lightly.
- belltaco 4y ago
  Not true. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccination-immigration/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccina... https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-workers-get-flu-shots-%E2%80%93-except-those-treat-veterans-study-finds https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-worke...
- kube-system 4y ago
  All three of those are wrong in at least some circumstances. Several members of my family have been getting their mandatory flu shots for decades.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    There's a sizable difference between: - informed consent at the time of signing an employment (e.g. military, medical) contract with known career conditions - new conditions (mandates) being added to existing labor contracts, while there is active litigation on the purpose and legality of those conditions, and re-definition of legal language (e.g. CDC's 2021 redefinition of "vaccine") used in mandates
    - kube-system 4y ago
      There are also many places in the US where influenza shots aren't contractual, they're law, particularly for those in schools, long-term care facilities, and healthcare settings. And vaccine mandates have hundreds of years of precedent in the US. It ain't the mandates that are new, it's the political climate.
      - walterbell 4y ago
        Same principle applies, if you don't like the law, don't join that career. Very different from mandates being applied to existing jobs previously not subject to mandates. > It ain't the mandates that are new. The CDC (re)definition of vaccine is new. Also the redefinition of pandemic around 2010.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kube-system 4y ago
        These mandates aren't only occupational. You may be required by law to be vaccinated to attend school in some places, or to be in certain care facilities. And the CDC wrote zero of these laws. The CDC's rephrasing of an FAQ article on their website may be a good starter for a right wing conspiracy theory article, but it has no bearing on this topic.
paul 4y ago
It’s both a novel virus and a novel vaccine. Without clinical trials we really don’t know if the boosters are helping or hurting. Also, we should be doing clinical trials on flu shots as well. New drugs, even if they are only slightly different still require clinical trials. Why is hacking the immune system not subject to the same scrutiny?
nomel 4y ago
Clearly, the flu shots are fairly established science (1945, 77 years), of a well researched virus. They're not a new form of vaccine delivery, pushed through on an emergency basis, with exclusions to testing, with legal protection against any damages for those exclusions, and 70 year trial document release plans. Could you help me understand why you think the context is so similar between the two? What's your opinion on members of the FDA leaving due to widely publicized political pressure to approve the vaccine? Do you think they were wrong for pushing back?
- nomel 4y ago
  After re-reading this thread, the angle of this comment wasn't warranted. I apologize.

Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?

by jjcon 4y ago

Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?

walterbell 4y ago

Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.

jjcon 4y ago
Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
- koolba 4y ago
  New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
  - exodust 4y ago
    "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
- sfusato 4y ago
  Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
- pandeiro 4y ago
  University of California "With this recommendation, the UC Vaccine policy now requires all staff and students to get the bivalent booster, when eligible" [1] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination
Grim-444 4y ago
Flu shots also use a vaccine mechanism that's been known/used for decades and is not a first of its kind in history mRNA treatment. I feel like this difference would lead towards one requiring more testing than the other, at least in a rational society. [Edit] For anyone that wants to downvote this, please explain what I said that was untrue. Flu shots in the US have never been mRNA based. Covid shots in the US are mRNA based. Before covid, there was never at any point in history an mRNA based vaccine rolled out to the public.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  I didn't downvote you but if the 12 billion or so COVID vaccine doses issued world wide don't convince you that the vaccine is statistically safe, at least as safe as something as common as paracetamol or aspirin, then what amount of testing would convince you?
  - yonaguska 4y ago
    It doesn't convince me because I do not know anyone personally that has had an adverse reaction to aspirin, that didn't also overdose on it. Meanwhile, I know several people that have had adverse reactions to the vaccine ranging from issues with periods, to heart problems, to death. No one is seriously tracking the adverse reactions, we've handed that off to the companies that produced the vaccines. And doctors are afraid to or don't care to raise concerns either. The vaccines are as statistically safe for me as COVID is for my age and health profile. And the vaccine makes no guarantee that I won't still catch COVID. Why would I double my risk when I've caught COVID, and it was nothing for me.
    - salad-tycoon 4y ago
      Just a nurse, this is true. I’ve been running a vaccine clinic. Very few to none are putting in adverse events to the proper place, there are competing data banks to report adverse reactions to (many of which are black boxes, data goes in and nothing comes out), doctors are dismissive, and in the few cases they do admit x,y,z caused by vaccine it is documented lightly.
belltaco 4y ago
Not true. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccination-immigration/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccina... https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-workers-get-flu-shots-%E2%80%93-except-those-treat-veterans-study-finds https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-worke...
kube-system 4y ago
All three of those are wrong in at least some circumstances. Several members of my family have been getting their mandatory flu shots for decades.
- walterbell 4y ago
  There's a sizable difference between: - informed consent at the time of signing an employment (e.g. military, medical) contract with known career conditions - new conditions (mandates) being added to existing labor contracts, while there is active litigation on the purpose and legality of those conditions, and re-definition of legal language (e.g. CDC's 2021 redefinition of "vaccine") used in mandates
  - kube-system 4y ago
    There are also many places in the US where influenza shots aren't contractual, they're law, particularly for those in schools, long-term care facilities, and healthcare settings. And vaccine mandates have hundreds of years of precedent in the US. It ain't the mandates that are new, it's the political climate.
    - walterbell 4y ago
      Same principle applies, if you don't like the law, don't join that career. Very different from mandates being applied to existing jobs previously not subject to mandates. > It ain't the mandates that are new. The CDC (re)definition of vaccine is new. Also the redefinition of pandemic around 2010.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kube-system 4y ago
        These mandates aren't only occupational. You may be required by law to be vaccinated to attend school in some places, or to be in certain care facilities. And the CDC wrote zero of these laws. The CDC's rephrasing of an FAQ article on their website may be a good starter for a right wing conspiracy theory article, but it has no bearing on this topic.

paul 4y ago

It’s both a novel virus and a novel vaccine. Without clinical trials we really don’t know if the boosters are helping or hurting. Also, we should be doing clinical trials on flu shots as well. New drugs, even if they are only slightly different still require clinical trials. Why is hacking the immune system not subject to the same scrutiny?

nomel 4y ago

Clearly, the flu shots are fairly established science (1945, 77 years), of a well researched virus. They're not a new form of vaccine delivery, pushed through on an emergency basis, with exclusions to testing, with legal protection against any damages for those exclusions, and 70 year trial document release plans. Could you help me understand why you think the context is so similar between the two? What's your opinion on members of the FDA leaving due to widely publicized political pressure to approve the vaccine? Do you think they were wrong for pushing back?

nomel 4y ago
After re-reading this thread, the angle of this comment wasn't warranted. I apologize.