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Christopher has stated multiple times that he finds the Christian idea of heaven unappealing. Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn im

Christopher has stated multiple times that he finds the Christian idea of heaven unappealing. Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell.

tspiteri 15y ago
> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell. If the Christian heaven does exist, it does not imply that all Christian doctrine is true, only that some is true. And there is a lot of contradictory Christian doctrine. By that, I am not saying that Christian doctrine is self-contradictory, I am only pointing out that several different Christian denominations have doctrines that contradict each other. According to some denominations, Hitchens would indeed be in hell, and according to others, he would be in heaven.
- jpulgarin 15y ago
  Instead of "which in turn" I should have said, "and further assuming", sorry about that. I am almost certain that there are some Christian denominations under which Christopher is now believed to be in heaven, although they are in the minority, and not in the mainstream of Christianity that Hitchens usually debated against. Can you name me two Christian denominations according to whom Christopher is now in heaven?
  - tspiteri 15y ago
    I do not know much about different Christian denominations, but I do come from a Catholic background myself, and I guess Catholicism does qualify as mainstream. I think that according to current Catholic doctrine, if someone does his best to find out the truth, and lives according to what he sincerely believes, he goes to heaven, even if he's wrong in the end. And I think Hitchens qualifies for those qualities (to be clear: I am referring to his doing his best to find out the truth and living according to it, not to being wrong in the end).
    - jpulgarin 15y ago
      In Catholic doctrine one who commits a mortal sin without repenting is bound to hell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin#Roman_Catholicism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin#Roman_Catholicism If you look at the three conditions that a sin must meet to be considered a mortal sin, I think there is a very high probability that writing a book titled God Is Not Great is a mortal sin. There are hundreds of things that Christopher did which very likely meet those conditions, and there is also a high probability that he has not repented about them before death. According to Catholicism people do not get into heaven by living according to what they sincerely believe, and many, many, Catholic scholars would say that Christopher is bound for hell.
      - tspiteri 15y ago
        The three conditions for a mortal sin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin 1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter. 2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context). 3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin. The question is about point 2. While Hitchens knew that it would be morally unacceptable according to Catholic doctrine, he considered writing the book as the right thing to do according to his own moral standard, so he would not be doing something he considered as a gravely wrong thing to do. Similarly for other people who live according to what they sincerely believe: they are not committing actions with full knowledge that the actions are the wrong thing to do. It does leave room for interpretation, and can be argued both ways, but I do not wish to be drawn further into a religious discussion.
        mattdeboard 15y ago
        Cool thread, I like the new CSS layout of Reddit here.
masklinn 15y ago
> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell. It's much more complex than that as there is no single "Christian doctrine" (each christian sect has its own doctrine, including concepts of hell, and these doctrines evolve over time). Some christian sects promise hell to all non-convers (and sinners), while others consider only acts and make devotion irrelevant to entry in heavens. I'm not going to make judgement calls on the hitch or these doctrines, but "Christian doctrine" being true absolutely does not translate into "Christopher is most certainly in hell". Let alone "the Christian heaven" existing (the "Christian" heaven being real) translates into this ("Christian heaven" could be true while everything else is false)
- oelewapperke 15y ago
  And all of them agree on the fact that running afoul of Christian doctrine is -by itself- not a reason to go to hell. The usual point is that trying to get into heaven without the bible is like driving a car blindfolded : you may very well get there, it's just ... You might want to google "good samaritan". While you're correct that there are variations, they're not that different at all.
protomyth 15y ago
Some of the Christian groups don't believe in hell either - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

tspiteri 15y ago

> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell. If the Christian heaven does exist, it does not imply that all Christian doctrine is true, only that some is true. And there is a lot of contradictory Christian doctrine. By that, I am not saying that Christian doctrine is self-contradictory, I am only pointing out that several different Christian denominations have doctrines that contradict each other. According to some denominations, Hitchens would indeed be in hell, and according to others, he would be in heaven.

jpulgarin 15y ago
Instead of "which in turn" I should have said, "and further assuming", sorry about that. I am almost certain that there are some Christian denominations under which Christopher is now believed to be in heaven, although they are in the minority, and not in the mainstream of Christianity that Hitchens usually debated against. Can you name me two Christian denominations according to whom Christopher is now in heaven?
- tspiteri 15y ago
  I do not know much about different Christian denominations, but I do come from a Catholic background myself, and I guess Catholicism does qualify as mainstream. I think that according to current Catholic doctrine, if someone does his best to find out the truth, and lives according to what he sincerely believes, he goes to heaven, even if he's wrong in the end. And I think Hitchens qualifies for those qualities (to be clear: I am referring to his doing his best to find out the truth and living according to it, not to being wrong in the end).
  - jpulgarin 15y ago
    In Catholic doctrine one who commits a mortal sin without repenting is bound to hell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin#Roman_Catholicism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin#Roman_Catholicism If you look at the three conditions that a sin must meet to be considered a mortal sin, I think there is a very high probability that writing a book titled God Is Not Great is a mortal sin. There are hundreds of things that Christopher did which very likely meet those conditions, and there is also a high probability that he has not repented about them before death. According to Catholicism people do not get into heaven by living according to what they sincerely believe, and many, many, Catholic scholars would say that Christopher is bound for hell.
    - tspiteri 15y ago
      The three conditions for a mortal sin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin 1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter. 2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context). 3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin. The question is about point 2. While Hitchens knew that it would be morally unacceptable according to Catholic doctrine, he considered writing the book as the right thing to do according to his own moral standard, so he would not be doing something he considered as a gravely wrong thing to do. Similarly for other people who live according to what they sincerely believe: they are not committing actions with full knowledge that the actions are the wrong thing to do. It does leave room for interpretation, and can be argued both ways, but I do not wish to be drawn further into a religious discussion.
      - mattdeboard 15y ago
        Cool thread, I like the new CSS layout of Reddit here.

masklinn 15y ago

> Furthermore, if the Christian heaven does exist (which in turn implies that Christian doctrine is true), Christopher is most certainly in hell. It's much more complex than that as there is no single "Christian doctrine" (each christian sect has its own doctrine, including concepts of hell, and these doctrines evolve over time). Some christian sects promise hell to all non-convers (and sinners), while others consider only acts and make devotion irrelevant to entry in heavens. I'm not going to make judgement calls on the hitch or these doctrines, but "Christian doctrine" being true absolutely does not translate into "Christopher is most certainly in hell". Let alone "the Christian heaven" existing (the "Christian" heaven being real) translates into this ("Christian heaven" could be true while everything else is false)

oelewapperke 15y ago
And all of them agree on the fact that running afoul of Christian doctrine is -by itself- not a reason to go to hell. The usual point is that trying to get into heaven without the bible is like driving a car blindfolded : you may very well get there, it's just ... You might want to google "good samaritan". While you're correct that there are variations, they're not that different at all.

protomyth 15y ago

Some of the Christian groups don't believe in hell either - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism