4 ms·

The flaw of BTC: everyone wants to cash out in dollars, euros or Swiss francs. Real money BTC is barely used as an actual currency to buy things with. I could

The flaw of BTC: everyone wants to cash out in dollars, euros or Swiss francs. Real money BTC is barely used as an actual currency to buy things with. I could be wrong but I thought the idea was that you'd be using BTC in daily life so that you wouldn't need to go "off the ramp".

arcticbull 4y ago
Well yes but at 2-3tx/sec, that supports a large flea market or a mid-sized costco, not a global economy. Even onboarding everyone onto Lightning would take 75 years, the entire rest of the block reward, about a trillion dollars worth of electricity and many gigatons of e-waste.
wizeman 4y ago
I wouldn't say that's a flaw. There are people, even today, who have no better choice but to use BTC for transactions or for storing value. The point is that if you want to (or need to), you can do it. So people now have that option, which they didn't have before BTC was created. As an example, it might be the best option for doing transactions and storing value for large amounts of people in some area, in times of crisis (e.g. financial crisis, war, oppressive governments, etc). You might not be able to use a fiat currency in such cases without significant downsides, such as extreme inflation, confiscation, blocking of bank withdrawals or transactions, going to prison, etc. Bitcoin is available and can be used whenever such events happen. In fact, if you ever run into a situation like this, you might even desperately need BTC and will be very glad it exists, so don't discount its value so easily. That said, sure, it would be better if there was more adoption. I think there should be and hope there will be. But it's not exactly a flaw, in the same way as you not being able to use the currency of some obscure country in your daily life is not a flaw with that currency.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > storing value for large amounts of people in some area, in times of crisis (e.g. financial crisis, war, oppressive governments, etc). > Bitcoin is available and can be used whenever such events happen. Except the fact that bitcoin needs continuous internet access and electricity. The first can be blocked by oppressive government. The second can be hard to come by in times of war. Bitcoin is a first-world solution to imaginary problems.
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > Except the fact that bitcoin needs continuous internet access and electricity. > The first can be blocked by oppressive government. First of all, bitcoin users don't need continuous internet access. At best, they need intermittent internet access. It's also possible to use Bitcoin without internet access. Nowadays you can send and receive Bitcoin transactions over satellite, SMS and I think even over radio, no Internet required. There are also ways to get around Internet blocking. > The second can be hard to come by in times of war. There are ways to produce your own electricity. And using Bitcoin (as opposed to mining it) doesn't require much electricity. You just need to be able to charge your mobile phone with a small portable solar panel. There are also many, many, many examples of such crisis where people have access to both the Internet and electricity. > Bitcoin is a first-world solution to imaginary problems. You really are completely oblivious to the many crisis around the world that have happened in recent decades, aren't you? You might just eat these words one day.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > It's also possible to use Bitcoin without internet access. Nowadays you can send and receive Bitcoin transactions over satellite, SMS and I think even over radio, no Internet required. All of these mean: continuous easily available connection at any point. And to send anything through SMS or radio? Again. First. World. "To send Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) over ham radio you need to download the apps TxTenna and Samourai wallet, sync your phone with a goTenna mesh device, and then you’ll be set up to send and receive Bitcoin via a mesh network " Ah yes. Apps. And readily available proprietary mesh devices. > There are ways to produce your own electricity. And all that is surely available and instantly accessible to people living with oppressive governments and in times of war. Instead of, you know, actual cash, barter, and storing valuables in actual valuables. > You really are completely oblivious to the many crisis around the world that have happened in recent decades, aren't you? It's precisely because I know of these crises that I find "generate your own electricity to just charge a mobile phone to just send bitcoin transactions over satellite or radio in times of war/oppressive government" laughable. > You might just eat these words one day. See, I lived through at least one of these crises in the 90s [1], after the fall of the Soviet Union. The idea that your bitcoin fantasy would survive a single brownout (or a blackout) when you need things like potable water or food now and not when "intermittent internet access is available" shows how much you understand about "the many crises around the world". And that's without war or an oppressive government. [1] Now delegated to a single paragraph on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_independent_Moldova#Transition_to_market_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_independent_Moldova...

arcticbull 4y ago

Well yes but at 2-3tx/sec, that supports a large flea market or a mid-sized costco, not a global economy. Even onboarding everyone onto Lightning would take 75 years, the entire rest of the block reward, about a trillion dollars worth of electricity and many gigatons of e-waste.

wizeman 4y ago

I wouldn't say that's a flaw. There are people, even today, who have no better choice but to use BTC for transactions or for storing value. The point is that if you want to (or need to), you can do it. So people now have that option, which they didn't have before BTC was created. As an example, it might be the best option for doing transactions and storing value for large amounts of people in some area, in times of crisis (e.g. financial crisis, war, oppressive governments, etc). You might not be able to use a fiat currency in such cases without significant downsides, such as extreme inflation, confiscation, blocking of bank withdrawals or transactions, going to prison, etc. Bitcoin is available and can be used whenever such events happen. In fact, if you ever run into a situation like this, you might even desperately need BTC and will be very glad it exists, so don't discount its value so easily. That said, sure, it would be better if there was more adoption. I think there should be and hope there will be. But it's not exactly a flaw, in the same way as you not being able to use the currency of some obscure country in your daily life is not a flaw with that currency.

dmitriid 4y ago
> storing value for large amounts of people in some area, in times of crisis (e.g. financial crisis, war, oppressive governments, etc). > Bitcoin is available and can be used whenever such events happen. Except the fact that bitcoin needs continuous internet access and electricity. The first can be blocked by oppressive government. The second can be hard to come by in times of war. Bitcoin is a first-world solution to imaginary problems.
- wizeman 4y ago
  > Except the fact that bitcoin needs continuous internet access and electricity. > The first can be blocked by oppressive government. First of all, bitcoin users don't need continuous internet access. At best, they need intermittent internet access. It's also possible to use Bitcoin without internet access. Nowadays you can send and receive Bitcoin transactions over satellite, SMS and I think even over radio, no Internet required. There are also ways to get around Internet blocking. > The second can be hard to come by in times of war. There are ways to produce your own electricity. And using Bitcoin (as opposed to mining it) doesn't require much electricity. You just need to be able to charge your mobile phone with a small portable solar panel. There are also many, many, many examples of such crisis where people have access to both the Internet and electricity. > Bitcoin is a first-world solution to imaginary problems. You really are completely oblivious to the many crisis around the world that have happened in recent decades, aren't you? You might just eat these words one day.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > It's also possible to use Bitcoin without internet access. Nowadays you can send and receive Bitcoin transactions over satellite, SMS and I think even over radio, no Internet required. All of these mean: continuous easily available connection at any point. And to send anything through SMS or radio? Again. First. World. "To send Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) over ham radio you need to download the apps TxTenna and Samourai wallet, sync your phone with a goTenna mesh device, and then you’ll be set up to send and receive Bitcoin via a mesh network " Ah yes. Apps. And readily available proprietary mesh devices. > There are ways to produce your own electricity. And all that is surely available and instantly accessible to people living with oppressive governments and in times of war. Instead of, you know, actual cash, barter, and storing valuables in actual valuables. > You really are completely oblivious to the many crisis around the world that have happened in recent decades, aren't you? It's precisely because I know of these crises that I find "generate your own electricity to just charge a mobile phone to just send bitcoin transactions over satellite or radio in times of war/oppressive government" laughable. > You might just eat these words one day. See, I lived through at least one of these crises in the 90s [1], after the fall of the Soviet Union. The idea that your bitcoin fantasy would survive a single brownout (or a blackout) when you need things like potable water or food now and not when "intermittent internet access is available" shows how much you understand about "the many crises around the world". And that's without war or an oppressive government. [1] Now delegated to a single paragraph on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_independent_Moldova#Transition_to_market_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_independent_Moldova...