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Why not? Do you seriously believe racism is never a thing that happens in hiring? Because it is, just as it is in academia. At least some of the time. Instead o

Why not? Do you seriously believe racism is never a thing that happens in hiring? Because it is, just as it is in academia. At least some of the time. Instead of shaming people for pointing out the real possibility that racism may be at play, consider acknowledging that it may be at play but that there's nothing the op can do about it and he or she should just keep plugging away. It's a numbers game, with or without racism, and you are not helping anyone by dismissing what is entirely fair speculation.

commandlinefan 4y ago
> the real possibility that racism may be at play I mean... isn't that the actual justification for DEI policies in the first place?
- dementis 4y ago
  DEI policies are not necessarily also anti-racism policies. The devil is in the details as they say. This is taken from CNBC interview with Lybra Clemons(Chief Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging Officer at Twilio Inc.) "This success, as well as Clemons’ acclaim for the company, is owed to Twilio’s commitment to becoming “anti-racist.” According to Clemons, part of the difference between DE&I and anti-racism is self-awareness. “Right before I joined, Twilio said, we’re on this journey to become anti-racist. And I think we were all like, what does that even mean,” she tells CNBC Make It. “I think a lot of people thought it was just a more elevated term for diversity, equity inclusion. But as we’ve started to go through the process, we’re learning that anti-racism is different. DE&I are still very foundational and fundamental to work, but anti-racism is an active term where you are personally responsible. This is about self-awareness and taking full accountability of who you are. We are actively promoting equity and racial justice through consistent, deliberate decisions that we make.”" https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/11/the-difference-between-dei-and-anti-racism-at-work-according-to-twilios-chief-of-diversity.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/11/the-difference-between-dei-a... Same page archived https://archive.ph/u92e4#selection-737.0-745.506 https://archive.ph/u92e4#selection-737.0-745.506
- fdschoeneman 4y ago
  That is literally the stated justification for dei policies.
John23832 4y ago
Because you have no proof for any “end of year” DEI target rate limiting. It is entirely what you labeled it as, speculation. I said nothing about racism in hiring practices. I was addressing the statement that was made.
- fdschoeneman 4y ago
  Okay so let's be clear: you think it is wrong or unhelpful to speculate that race or sex may be a factor in what the op claims to be observing? Because "baiting?" What do you mean by baiting? I read that as you trying to shame people for even discussing the possibility that racism or sexism is a factor. As if it is somehow wrong to discuss these things. If you had a different intent, please share it.
  - John23832 4y ago
    I could speculate because the op is a Taurus. It holds just as much weight in the conversation because there’s no evidence that the op’s zodiac or DEI status are used to eliminate them in the hiring process. I used the word bait because unsubstantiated “DEI hate” is used on hackernews as lightning rods. I haven’t shamed anyone. If you actually read what I said above, you would see that I’m not denying racism in hiring exist… but again there’s no evidence of that here.
    - fdschoeneman 4y ago
      No evidence? I was not in on any of those specific conversations and neither was the op but I've overheard a lot of conversations from hiring managers and they did explicitly discuss candidates race and sex, and I think if you ask around you'll see you are the outlier in having never seen evidence that racism and sexism have played a role before. Just because you may not have been around when a tree fell in the woods doesn't mean it didn't make a sound.
      - John23832 4y ago
        > I was not in on any of those specific conversations and neither was the op To my point that you're speculating about something you have no evidence of and know nothing about. > I've overheard a lot of conversations from hiring managers and they did explicitly discuss candidates race and sex, Anectdata. > I think if you ask around you'll see you are the outlier in having never seen evidence that racism and sexism have played a role before. I never said this. > Just because you may not have been around when a tree fell in the woods doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. You can't speculate that a specific tree was felled with an axe rather than a chainsaw when you weren't in the woods to see it happen.

commandlinefan 4y ago

> the real possibility that racism may be at play I mean... isn't that the actual justification for DEI policies in the first place?

dementis 4y ago
DEI policies are not necessarily also anti-racism policies. The devil is in the details as they say. This is taken from CNBC interview with Lybra Clemons(Chief Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging Officer at Twilio Inc.) "This success, as well as Clemons’ acclaim for the company, is owed to Twilio’s commitment to becoming “anti-racist.” According to Clemons, part of the difference between DE&I and anti-racism is self-awareness. “Right before I joined, Twilio said, we’re on this journey to become anti-racist. And I think we were all like, what does that even mean,” she tells CNBC Make It. “I think a lot of people thought it was just a more elevated term for diversity, equity inclusion. But as we’ve started to go through the process, we’re learning that anti-racism is different. DE&I are still very foundational and fundamental to work, but anti-racism is an active term where you are personally responsible. This is about self-awareness and taking full accountability of who you are. We are actively promoting equity and racial justice through consistent, deliberate decisions that we make.”" https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/11/the-difference-between-dei-and-anti-racism-at-work-according-to-twilios-chief-of-diversity.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/11/the-difference-between-dei-a... Same page archived https://archive.ph/u92e4#selection-737.0-745.506 https://archive.ph/u92e4#selection-737.0-745.506
fdschoeneman 4y ago
That is literally the stated justification for dei policies.

John23832 4y ago

Because you have no proof for any “end of year” DEI target rate limiting. It is entirely what you labeled it as, speculation. I said nothing about racism in hiring practices. I was addressing the statement that was made.

fdschoeneman 4y ago
Okay so let's be clear: you think it is wrong or unhelpful to speculate that race or sex may be a factor in what the op claims to be observing? Because "baiting?" What do you mean by baiting? I read that as you trying to shame people for even discussing the possibility that racism or sexism is a factor. As if it is somehow wrong to discuss these things. If you had a different intent, please share it.
- John23832 4y ago
  I could speculate because the op is a Taurus. It holds just as much weight in the conversation because there’s no evidence that the op’s zodiac or DEI status are used to eliminate them in the hiring process. I used the word bait because unsubstantiated “DEI hate” is used on hackernews as lightning rods. I haven’t shamed anyone. If you actually read what I said above, you would see that I’m not denying racism in hiring exist… but again there’s no evidence of that here.
  - fdschoeneman 4y ago
    No evidence? I was not in on any of those specific conversations and neither was the op but I've overheard a lot of conversations from hiring managers and they did explicitly discuss candidates race and sex, and I think if you ask around you'll see you are the outlier in having never seen evidence that racism and sexism have played a role before. Just because you may not have been around when a tree fell in the woods doesn't mean it didn't make a sound.
    - John23832 4y ago
      > I was not in on any of those specific conversations and neither was the op To my point that you're speculating about something you have no evidence of and know nothing about. > I've overheard a lot of conversations from hiring managers and they did explicitly discuss candidates race and sex, Anectdata. > I think if you ask around you'll see you are the outlier in having never seen evidence that racism and sexism have played a role before. I never said this. > Just because you may not have been around when a tree fell in the woods doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. You can't speculate that a specific tree was felled with an axe rather than a chainsaw when you weren't in the woods to see it happen.