4 ms·

> It’s not worth the risk when patient trust and health are on the line. Ah yes, the patient's trust in the company to rip them off on lifesaving drugs

by ro_bit 4y ago

dragontamer 4y ago
Patients seem to trust that Eli Lilly's drugs work. The price point may not be trusted, but its efficacy is trusted.
- mirzap 4y ago
  Patients don't have real choice. Options are either you die or spend hundreds* of dollars on a drug that everywhere else on the planet costs few bucks.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    That doesn't contradict the point above
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Patients seldom have a choice in any aspect of their care. We could flood the market with dirt cheap insulin using an older formulation but surprise you can’t actually do that without one of the oligarchs buying your company just to stop you.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Or the dirt cheap insulin does not work as well as the newer patented insulin that a private company paid to do R&D for. There is nothing stopping Congress from passing a bill to fund insulin R&D that provides the newest insulin technology without being patented, but the fact that they do not and would rather sit in their pulpit and “grill” private company representatives proves that it is all a show. We (sufficient voters) want to pay for nothing, but expect everything.
      - mlsu 4y ago
        The patents on lispro (the stuff that costs $300/vial) expired several years ago. The fact is, Lilly isn't even the largest profiteer. The insane margins of insulin are actually split between Lilly, PBMs (like optumRX and CareMark) and insurance companies, through an incredibly complex system of rebates and vouchers. Turning over that rock reveals more writhing maggots than anyone cares to see.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        > The insane margins of insulin are actually split between Lilly, PBMs (like optumRX and CareMark) and insurance companies, through an incredibly complex system of rebates and vouchers. Turning over that rock reveals more writhing maggots than anyone cares to see. Health insurance companies (parent companies of PBMs) have low single digit profit margins, and medicine manufacturers like Eli Lilly have 20%+ profit margins. If health insurance companies are getting any piece of the "insane" profit margin, then it is being eaten up by losses of other healthcare spend. Health insurance company profit margins: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/UNH/unitedhealth-group/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/UNH/unitedhealth-g... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ELV/elevance-health/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ELV/elevance-healt... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVS/cvs-health/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVS/cvs-health/pro... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CI/cigna/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CI/cigna/profit-ma... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HUM/humana/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HUM/humana/profit-... Versus medicine manufacturers' profit margins: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JNJ/johnson-johnson/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JNJ/johnson-johnso... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/LLY/eli-lilly/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/LLY/eli-lilly/prof... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PFE/pfizer/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PFE/pfizer/profit-... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVO/novo-nordisk/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVO/novo-nordisk/p... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ABBV/abbvie/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ABBV/abbvie/profit...
  - belval 4y ago
    Why is there no black market for insulin? Like build capacity in Mexico/Canada and smuggle the product in the US? Seems like the multiplier would still be pretty good.
    - mlsu 4y ago
      There is plenty of gray market for insulin near both borders. No large players (just individuals going over the border to buy).
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      Why do you assume there isn't one already? The "War on Drugs" was never just about illegal drugs across borders, and US Customs will try to stop many legal ones too, especially at volume.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      The Bush admin basically made a point of ending crossing the boarder to buy cheap drugs.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    Which still doesn’t mean that patients aren’t trusting Eli Lilly. Given the fact that they are choosing to spend a lot of dollars buying its drugs indicates that they do trust the efficacy of the drugs. Also, the fact that the drug costs a few bucks everywhere else on the planet but not in the U.S. suggests this isn’t as much of an Eli Lilly problem as it is a USA problem.
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago
    Not true. You can buy generic insulin in the US for a reasonable price, it's the new stuff that lasts longer that is expensive.
    - stevenwoo 4y ago
      I looked it up and a fifty percent savings is pretty good, but that is still a pretty high price for something that has to be taken forever and is twice as expensive as non generic in every other country. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-interchangeable-biosimilar-insulin-product-treatment-diabetes https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
    - pixl97 4y ago
      I believe Walmart is the only place that does this, and there is some state this is not true in (thinking Indiana, but I'd have to look it up).
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    The patients also aren't actually paying for it, so mostly don't care. Insurance, Medicaid, or Medicare is paying.
    - AlexandrB 4y ago
      And insurance companies get that money from thin air? Isn't this "Exhibit A" for why health insurance in the US is unaffordable to many?
      - ALittleLight 4y ago
        I think insurance companies don't actually pay the "sticker price" but negotiate for substantial discounts.
blitzar 4y ago
You are freee to keep your money and die if you prefer.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  > You are freee to keep your money and die if you prefer. Just to be clear, you're proposing that "freedom" means "do what this corporations wants you to do or die". If this were anywhere but Hacker News, I'd think you were joking, but... you're being serious, aren't you? And let me guess: if a government says, "do what we want you to do, or die", that's regulation and therefore bad, because it's a government doing it, not a corporation? SMH.
  - bellinom 4y ago
    It's scary how many people legitimately see this as "freedom".
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
      Well, if it's any comfort, it's usually not this bad. I only usually come across this on Hacker News, which is why I have to limit my time here for my own mental health. Some people are so dogmatic about capitalism here that they become indistinguishable from sociopaths. It's why I call this[1] "The Hacker News Trolley Problem". [1] https://i.redd.it/d9fnppk1p6771.jpg https://i.redd.it/d9fnppk1p6771.jpg
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > If this were anywhere but Hacker News, I'd think you were joking, but... you're being serious, aren't you? How did you come to that conclusion? I mean, there is a lot of earnest extreme libertarianism on HN, but not nearly so much that you can assume a comment like the GP isn't sarcastic. The correct interpretation is somewhere between "sarcastic" and "too ambiguous to tell" without digging into comment history.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
sytelus 4y ago
This has nothing to do with patients. These are pharma companies existing for the sole purpose of maximizing shareholder value by eking out very last drop of profits. They are just bullying Twitter with whatever leverage they have because Twitter is in unfortunate position where it doesn't provide value at the level where they are the one with leverage. These guys would have not dared this move on Google, for example.

> It’s not worth the risk when patient trust and health are on the line. Ah yes, the patient's trust in the company to rip them off on lifesaving drugs

by ro_bit 4y ago

> It’s not worth the risk when patient trust and health are on the line. Ah yes, the patient's trust in the company to rip them off on lifesaving drugs

dragontamer 4y ago

Patients seem to trust that Eli Lilly's drugs work. The price point may not be trusted, but its efficacy is trusted.

mirzap 4y ago
Patients don't have real choice. Options are either you die or spend hundreds* of dollars on a drug that everywhere else on the planet costs few bucks.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  That doesn't contradict the point above
- Spivak 4y ago
  Patients seldom have a choice in any aspect of their care. We could flood the market with dirt cheap insulin using an older formulation but surprise you can’t actually do that without one of the oligarchs buying your company just to stop you.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Or the dirt cheap insulin does not work as well as the newer patented insulin that a private company paid to do R&D for. There is nothing stopping Congress from passing a bill to fund insulin R&D that provides the newest insulin technology without being patented, but the fact that they do not and would rather sit in their pulpit and “grill” private company representatives proves that it is all a show. We (sufficient voters) want to pay for nothing, but expect everything.
    - mlsu 4y ago
      The patents on lispro (the stuff that costs $300/vial) expired several years ago. The fact is, Lilly isn't even the largest profiteer. The insane margins of insulin are actually split between Lilly, PBMs (like optumRX and CareMark) and insurance companies, through an incredibly complex system of rebates and vouchers. Turning over that rock reveals more writhing maggots than anyone cares to see.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        > The insane margins of insulin are actually split between Lilly, PBMs (like optumRX and CareMark) and insurance companies, through an incredibly complex system of rebates and vouchers. Turning over that rock reveals more writhing maggots than anyone cares to see. Health insurance companies (parent companies of PBMs) have low single digit profit margins, and medicine manufacturers like Eli Lilly have 20%+ profit margins. If health insurance companies are getting any piece of the "insane" profit margin, then it is being eaten up by losses of other healthcare spend. Health insurance company profit margins: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/UNH/unitedhealth-group/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/UNH/unitedhealth-g... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ELV/elevance-health/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ELV/elevance-healt... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVS/cvs-health/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVS/cvs-health/pro... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CI/cigna/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CI/cigna/profit-ma... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HUM/humana/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HUM/humana/profit-... Versus medicine manufacturers' profit margins: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JNJ/johnson-johnson/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JNJ/johnson-johnso... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/LLY/eli-lilly/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/LLY/eli-lilly/prof... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PFE/pfizer/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PFE/pfizer/profit-... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVO/novo-nordisk/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NVO/novo-nordisk/p... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ABBV/abbvie/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ABBV/abbvie/profit...
- belval 4y ago
  Why is there no black market for insulin? Like build capacity in Mexico/Canada and smuggle the product in the US? Seems like the multiplier would still be pretty good.
  - mlsu 4y ago
    There is plenty of gray market for insulin near both borders. No large players (just individuals going over the border to buy).
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Why do you assume there isn't one already? The "War on Drugs" was never just about illegal drugs across borders, and US Customs will try to stop many legal ones too, especially at volume.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    The Bush admin basically made a point of ending crossing the boarder to buy cheap drugs.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  Which still doesn’t mean that patients aren’t trusting Eli Lilly. Given the fact that they are choosing to spend a lot of dollars buying its drugs indicates that they do trust the efficacy of the drugs. Also, the fact that the drug costs a few bucks everywhere else on the planet but not in the U.S. suggests this isn’t as much of an Eli Lilly problem as it is a USA problem.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Not true. You can buy generic insulin in the US for a reasonable price, it's the new stuff that lasts longer that is expensive.
  - stevenwoo 4y ago
    I looked it up and a fifty percent savings is pretty good, but that is still a pretty high price for something that has to be taken forever and is twice as expensive as non generic in every other country. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-interchangeable-biosimilar-insulin-product-treatment-diabetes https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I believe Walmart is the only place that does this, and there is some state this is not true in (thinking Indiana, but I'd have to look it up).
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  The patients also aren't actually paying for it, so mostly don't care. Insurance, Medicaid, or Medicare is paying.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    And insurance companies get that money from thin air? Isn't this "Exhibit A" for why health insurance in the US is unaffordable to many?
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      I think insurance companies don't actually pay the "sticker price" but negotiate for substantial discounts.

blitzar 4y ago

You are freee to keep your money and die if you prefer.

kerkeslager 4y ago
> You are freee to keep your money and die if you prefer. Just to be clear, you're proposing that "freedom" means "do what this corporations wants you to do or die". If this were anywhere but Hacker News, I'd think you were joking, but... you're being serious, aren't you? And let me guess: if a government says, "do what we want you to do, or die", that's regulation and therefore bad, because it's a government doing it, not a corporation? SMH.
- bellinom 4y ago
  It's scary how many people legitimately see this as "freedom".
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    Well, if it's any comfort, it's usually not this bad. I only usually come across this on Hacker News, which is why I have to limit my time here for my own mental health. Some people are so dogmatic about capitalism here that they become indistinguishable from sociopaths. It's why I call this[1] "The Hacker News Trolley Problem". [1] https://i.redd.it/d9fnppk1p6771.jpg https://i.redd.it/d9fnppk1p6771.jpg
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > If this were anywhere but Hacker News, I'd think you were joking, but... you're being serious, aren't you? How did you come to that conclusion? I mean, there is a lot of earnest extreme libertarianism on HN, but not nearly so much that you can assume a comment like the GP isn't sarcastic. The correct interpretation is somewhere between "sarcastic" and "too ambiguous to tell" without digging into comment history.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago

sytelus 4y ago

This has nothing to do with patients. These are pharma companies existing for the sole purpose of maximizing shareholder value by eking out very last drop of profits. They are just bullying Twitter with whatever leverage they have because Twitter is in unfortunate position where it doesn't provide value at the level where they are the one with leverage. These guys would have not dared this move on Google, for example.