4 ms·

I really don't get the animus against private schools. Surely a one size fits all public school can't possibly best serve the interests of every possible studen

by ch4s3 4y ago

I really don't get the animus against private schools. Surely a one size fits all public school can't possibly best serve the interests of every possible student. Furthermore in a pluralistic society, shouldn't we tolerate people's different preferences in education, especially those who opt for more religious education?

hotpotamus 4y ago
Try opening up a Madrasa in your neighborhood and you may find a lot of pushback to private religious schools, even from people who say they are in favor of such a thing.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  There are several Madrasas in Brooklyn near where I live. I'd never send my child to one, but the suppression of ethnic/cultural/religious education has a long and ugly history in the US. The first public religious schools in the US were cooked up to force Irish and Italian children out of Catholic education. Is that really who we want to be in the 21st century?
nevinera 4y ago
Most of us don't have a problem with _private schools_, just with state money or charity being aimed at them. Private schools are fundamentally capitalistic - they serve their (generally wealthy) patrons, not society.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  > Most of us don't have a problem with _private schools_, just with state money or charity being aimed at them. State money already goes to a dizzying array of non-profit and religious institutions. Anywhere from local homeless and addiction services to the University of Notre Dame. Why should primary and secondary schools be excluded? > Private schools are fundamentally capitalistic This is a meaningless statement. The VST majority of private schools in the US are non-profits. > they serve their (generally wealthy) patrons, not society. Religious schools in the US started out as a cheap way to educate the poor in reading. Catholic schools in particular still serve poorer communities and are low cost. Residential assignment in public schools comes from a legacy of segregation and anti-catholic laws. The wealth will always have their pick of education for their children and always have. Denying funding for poor students that want to opt out of their shitty assigned schools just perpetuates injustice.
  - nevinera 4y ago
    Yeah, I was clarifying a sentiment, not starting a debate about a complex topic. This was actually a policy debate topic back when I was in school, it's very tired ground -.- I understand that you disagree, and you probably have thought-out reasons for that. You'll just have to understand that I do as well, and we can both skip the hours of wasted time where we try to convince each other (or an imaginary audience).
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      That’s fair. By disposition I prefer to always try to make a clear case for an idea. It sharpens my own thinking and sometimes observers are inspired to look into something more deeply.
- sershe 4y ago
  What is a median private school tuition? I doubt it's very high, I know someone who taught in an extremely wealthy-focused and exclusive private school and the tuition was $35k/year. In contrast, New York state schools appear to spend $25-30k per year per pupil [0 summarizing 1][2] and gets... far, far worse results. You could say that private schools would attempt to serve anyone they can (just like any business), but public schools rob them of the opportunity. In this system, only the rich can escape, while non-rich get stuck with a botched socialized system at taxpayers' expense. Donating to allow more people to escape the public schools is thus a great cause. [0] https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ny-school-spending-results-20211126-qqw55a5eozg2bh6ptdzcm5zr3e-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ny-school-spendi... [1] https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/econ/school-finances/secondary-education-finance.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/econ/school-finances... [2] https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/ny-per-pupil-school-spending-topped-25k-in-2018-19/ https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/ny-per-pupil-schoo...
dontlaugh 4y ago
There's no reason public education can't be religious, if that is desired by the population in a region. Both ethnic and religious public schools exist in many countries, to cater to minorities. The problem is charity with the privatising of schooling as a condition. Not unlike charity with the purchase of a specific type of seed sold by a specific company as a condition.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  > There's no reason public education can't be religious There is the establishment clause of the constitution in the US, which prevents the nation from establishing state sponsored religion. Courts have been pretty clear that compulsory religious elements in public school violates the establishment clause. > The problem is charity with the privatising of schooling as a condition. Not unlike charity with the purchase of a specific type of seed sold by a specific company as a condition. I have no idea what you mean by this.
  - dontlaugh 4y ago
    Most countries aren't the US and most people don't live in the US. It's also not where most of Gates' charity goes. Gates offers charity only under specific conditions, especially in Africa. He gives charity for schooling, if it's for private schools he could make money off of elsewhere (at the expense of public schools). He gives charity for agriculture, if it's for some specific seeds he makes money off of (at the expense of the local people choosing what they think is appropriate). He distorts poor economies towards his own ends, that is the problem.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      > if it's for private schools he could make money off of elsewhere Is he actually doing that?

by ch4s3 4y ago

hotpotamus 4y ago

Try opening up a Madrasa in your neighborhood and you may find a lot of pushback to private religious schools, even from people who say they are in favor of such a thing.

ch4s3 4y ago
There are several Madrasas in Brooklyn near where I live. I'd never send my child to one, but the suppression of ethnic/cultural/religious education has a long and ugly history in the US. The first public religious schools in the US were cooked up to force Irish and Italian children out of Catholic education. Is that really who we want to be in the 21st century?

nevinera 4y ago

Most of us don't have a problem with _private schools_, just with state money or charity being aimed at them. Private schools are fundamentally capitalistic - they serve their (generally wealthy) patrons, not society.

ch4s3 4y ago
> Most of us don't have a problem with _private schools_, just with state money or charity being aimed at them. State money already goes to a dizzying array of non-profit and religious institutions. Anywhere from local homeless and addiction services to the University of Notre Dame. Why should primary and secondary schools be excluded? > Private schools are fundamentally capitalistic This is a meaningless statement. The VST majority of private schools in the US are non-profits. > they serve their (generally wealthy) patrons, not society. Religious schools in the US started out as a cheap way to educate the poor in reading. Catholic schools in particular still serve poorer communities and are low cost. Residential assignment in public schools comes from a legacy of segregation and anti-catholic laws. The wealth will always have their pick of education for their children and always have. Denying funding for poor students that want to opt out of their shitty assigned schools just perpetuates injustice.
- nevinera 4y ago
  Yeah, I was clarifying a sentiment, not starting a debate about a complex topic. This was actually a policy debate topic back when I was in school, it's very tired ground -.- I understand that you disagree, and you probably have thought-out reasons for that. You'll just have to understand that I do as well, and we can both skip the hours of wasted time where we try to convince each other (or an imaginary audience).
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    That’s fair. By disposition I prefer to always try to make a clear case for an idea. It sharpens my own thinking and sometimes observers are inspired to look into something more deeply.
sershe 4y ago
What is a median private school tuition? I doubt it's very high, I know someone who taught in an extremely wealthy-focused and exclusive private school and the tuition was $35k/year. In contrast, New York state schools appear to spend $25-30k per year per pupil [0 summarizing 1][2] and gets... far, far worse results. You could say that private schools would attempt to serve anyone they can (just like any business), but public schools rob them of the opportunity. In this system, only the rich can escape, while non-rich get stuck with a botched socialized system at taxpayers' expense. Donating to allow more people to escape the public schools is thus a great cause. [0] https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ny-school-spending-results-20211126-qqw55a5eozg2bh6ptdzcm5zr3e-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ny-school-spendi... [1] https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/econ/school-finances/secondary-education-finance.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2020/econ/school-finances... [2] https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/ny-per-pupil-school-spending-topped-25k-in-2018-19/ https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/ny-per-pupil-schoo...

dontlaugh 4y ago

There's no reason public education can't be religious, if that is desired by the population in a region. Both ethnic and religious public schools exist in many countries, to cater to minorities. The problem is charity with the privatising of schooling as a condition. Not unlike charity with the purchase of a specific type of seed sold by a specific company as a condition.

ch4s3 4y ago
> There's no reason public education can't be religious There is the establishment clause of the constitution in the US, which prevents the nation from establishing state sponsored religion. Courts have been pretty clear that compulsory religious elements in public school violates the establishment clause. > The problem is charity with the privatising of schooling as a condition. Not unlike charity with the purchase of a specific type of seed sold by a specific company as a condition. I have no idea what you mean by this.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  Most countries aren't the US and most people don't live in the US. It's also not where most of Gates' charity goes. Gates offers charity only under specific conditions, especially in Africa. He gives charity for schooling, if it's for private schools he could make money off of elsewhere (at the expense of public schools). He gives charity for agriculture, if it's for some specific seeds he makes money off of (at the expense of the local people choosing what they think is appropriate). He distorts poor economies towards his own ends, that is the problem.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    > if it's for private schools he could make money off of elsewhere Is he actually doing that?