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I used to think that free will existed but now I am surprised we even think that. Just looking inwards is enough to convince me that I have no idea what I am go

I used to think that free will existed but now I am surprised we even think that. Just looking inwards is enough to convince me that I have no idea what I am going to think next, type next, or how I am even going to finish this sentence. It simply arrives and I am the first (and possibly only) one to experience it. I cannot will the will to will.

jondeval 4y ago
> I used to think that free will existed but now I am surprised we even think that. How about over a longer time period? For example, say you want to pickup a new good habit and get rid of a bad habit. When you start to intentionally make thousands of little choices over time that all add up to a major change in your life, can't you say that you freely chose that path? Even if each individual impulse along the way maintains a connection to a more materialist/deterministic set of causes, you can still meaningfully talk about your own free will at this higher level of abstraction. What am I missing?
- kajaktum 4y ago
  >want >intentionally >chose None of these words make sense. I can't want what I want (author's thesis here). This higher level of abstraction that you talk about is an illusion caused by not paying attention. I can ruminate for years about how I am going to do this and that; but at the end of the day, the impetus to actually do it is still mysterious. I can't want to change. I just change. I just do the little things that shifts my life for the better and then one day just simply stop. I can forge some reasons as to why I change but I could have easily muster my way through it. Can I choose how much will power I have? Now people will say because free will doesn't exist means that choices don't matter. It absolutely does. The fact that you "chose" to do good things matter. Because experiences matter. Because experience pain/suffering however you wish to define it is not a "good" thing. I can perfectly understand some issues people have with this concept because it causes them trouble with their addiction/depression. But just because we tell lies like we always do in programming to facilitate discussion/teaching/abstraction does not mean that those things are not real. You don't want to make decisions on a national/scale on lies that you tell yourself to get to sleep.
  - jondeval 4y ago
    Thank you. I appreciate you wanting and choosing to respond.
    - kajaktum 4y ago
      You're welcome (as I smile not out of my free will)
slfnflctd 4y ago
As someone who's struggled with addiction most of my life, the idea that free will doesn't exist is worse than useless to me. The way we experience our lives indicates that we make choices and they have consequences. I don't know what kind of life you would have if you suddenly decided to stop making choices one day, but you would probably end up institutionalized if it didn't kill you first. Even if my choices are predetermined somehow, I can do an end run around that by flipping coins or rolling dice when faced with multiple options. I have in fact done so on many occasions. At that point I didn't choose, RNG did. You could argue a particular coin flip was predetermined to land on 'heads', but I cannot see how that argument is useful if it doesn't lead to making better predictions.
- kajaktum 4y ago
  If thinking about free will causes you suffering. I implore you to not read further. I do not intent to cause any suffering. >The way we experience our lives indicates that we make choices and they have consequences Even if we don't "make" our choices, why would that not matter? Experience matter (it's the only thing that matter). It still matters that some unconscious rock fell over your head. It matters that you "decides" to be better because that means that you will experience better life. I am sorry to hear that you struggled with addiction and I can understand that some knowledge is poison. We do not drill the concept of suffering to our young children every waking minute of their life. That does not mean that any of those things are untrue. If your doctor consistently denies that death is a concept you would rightly be asking for a different one. Truth matters. I have some addiction problems myself and I think free will is one of the most poisonous concept. It says that the lotus of blame is solely on me. _I_ have to decide to change and actually perform it. But we know better than that, we know that _I_ can be influenced. Therefore we know to avoid things that feeds into our addiction. I can't just "not do it". >I have in fact done so on many occasions. At that point I didn't choose, RNG did. You did not choose to follow this through. You could have easily said, "I am going to do the opposite of this to assert my free will! Take that!" and you didn't choose to do this either.

jondeval 4y ago

> I used to think that free will existed but now I am surprised we even think that. How about over a longer time period? For example, say you want to pickup a new good habit and get rid of a bad habit. When you start to intentionally make thousands of little choices over time that all add up to a major change in your life, can't you say that you freely chose that path? Even if each individual impulse along the way maintains a connection to a more materialist/deterministic set of causes, you can still meaningfully talk about your own free will at this higher level of abstraction. What am I missing?

kajaktum 4y ago
>want >intentionally >chose None of these words make sense. I can't want what I want (author's thesis here). This higher level of abstraction that you talk about is an illusion caused by not paying attention. I can ruminate for years about how I am going to do this and that; but at the end of the day, the impetus to actually do it is still mysterious. I can't want to change. I just change. I just do the little things that shifts my life for the better and then one day just simply stop. I can forge some reasons as to why I change but I could have easily muster my way through it. Can I choose how much will power I have? Now people will say because free will doesn't exist means that choices don't matter. It absolutely does. The fact that you "chose" to do good things matter. Because experiences matter. Because experience pain/suffering however you wish to define it is not a "good" thing. I can perfectly understand some issues people have with this concept because it causes them trouble with their addiction/depression. But just because we tell lies like we always do in programming to facilitate discussion/teaching/abstraction does not mean that those things are not real. You don't want to make decisions on a national/scale on lies that you tell yourself to get to sleep.
- jondeval 4y ago
  Thank you. I appreciate you wanting and choosing to respond.
  - kajaktum 4y ago
    You're welcome (as I smile not out of my free will)

slfnflctd 4y ago

As someone who's struggled with addiction most of my life, the idea that free will doesn't exist is worse than useless to me. The way we experience our lives indicates that we make choices and they have consequences. I don't know what kind of life you would have if you suddenly decided to stop making choices one day, but you would probably end up institutionalized if it didn't kill you first. Even if my choices are predetermined somehow, I can do an end run around that by flipping coins or rolling dice when faced with multiple options. I have in fact done so on many occasions. At that point I didn't choose, RNG did. You could argue a particular coin flip was predetermined to land on 'heads', but I cannot see how that argument is useful if it doesn't lead to making better predictions.

kajaktum 4y ago
If thinking about free will causes you suffering. I implore you to not read further. I do not intent to cause any suffering. >The way we experience our lives indicates that we make choices and they have consequences Even if we don't "make" our choices, why would that not matter? Experience matter (it's the only thing that matter). It still matters that some unconscious rock fell over your head. It matters that you "decides" to be better because that means that you will experience better life. I am sorry to hear that you struggled with addiction and I can understand that some knowledge is poison. We do not drill the concept of suffering to our young children every waking minute of their life. That does not mean that any of those things are untrue. If your doctor consistently denies that death is a concept you would rightly be asking for a different one. Truth matters. I have some addiction problems myself and I think free will is one of the most poisonous concept. It says that the lotus of blame is solely on me. _I_ have to decide to change and actually perform it. But we know better than that, we know that _I_ can be influenced. Therefore we know to avoid things that feeds into our addiction. I can't just "not do it". >I have in fact done so on many occasions. At that point I didn't choose, RNG did. You did not choose to follow this through. You could have easily said, "I am going to do the opposite of this to assert my free will! Take that!" and you didn't choose to do this either.