5 ms·

I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? Large layoffs in large orgs are generally done at a team level rather than an individual level.

by kypro 4y ago

I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? Large layoffs in large orgs are generally done at a team level rather than an individual level. So presumably this individual's entire team no longer exists. So out of respect for them relocating do you then try to reposition them in the company somehow? And what about all the people who didn't relocate but may have recently left stable job for an opportunity at Meta? Do they not matter or should they also be repositioned out of respect? And what about those who have personal reasons that make the layoff extra difficult? For example, those who might have just had a new born or who have family members in hospital? Do their personal situations not also matter? And for how long would these individuals be safe if you do make an exception? Do you keep them for 3 months just to be nice then proceed with the layoff anyway? I'm not sure that's much better... I think maybe the best thing to do here is just to give good severance packages? I don't think I'm being heartless. I'm sat here thinking both, "man this is awful" while also having no idea what the right answer is. You can argue layoffs suck more for certain people and those people should be protected, but for a larger org needing to do mass-layoffs it seems almost impossible to make those kinds of assessments on an individual level in a way that is fair. You'd inevitably just end up protecting certain types of crappy situations (recently located) over other types of crappy situations (family member just died). Just thinking out loud... Maybe I'm missing something here.

Msurrow 4y ago
The solution is right there in OPs post: “give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews.” Thats it. HR knows who is working on visa. Inform them of the situation, give them 3 months, take away all their accesses and let them spend the 3 months to look for a new job. Meta makes a bazillion USD pr year. Even if they had to pay 1000 workers on visa for 3 months it wont make a dent in their profits. For the employee that just relocated, on the other hand, this makes all the difference in the world. Corporate greed is disgusting when its put above Human decency like this.
- murderfs 4y ago
  Isn't this literally what's happening? (Except it's 4 months, not 3?)
  - adulion 4y ago
    he's probably been given the pay but not the time to find his feet
  - m000 4y ago
    The problem is not so much the money, but the damn Visa: The moment you become unemployed, the countdown clock to deportation starts ticking. This is a HUGE stress, and also puts you at a disadvantage against your prospect employers. IMHO, there should be legislation for covering these cases. I.e. when you sponsor a Visa as an employer, it should be mandatory to pay the employee for a minimum of 12-24 months. If you want to lay them off, that's fine, but legally they would still be considered employed and paid in full until that grace period expires.
    - Avicebron 4y ago
      This why it happens, the company I work with would rather hire someone who is in a tight bind if their employment goes away, they'll work harder, be scared to lose it. etc. its called the H1B solution
    - blarghyblarg 4y ago
      Depending on the type of visa, it's not even like the situation depends on employment. I've seen a few people with stable jobs sent home from the US when their visa came up for renewal. Immigrating to the west, the USA in particular but also Canada, involves an element of luck, beyond what most people realize. edit: To be very fair, though, there is an implicit warning in the paperwork and interview for every US work visa for exactly this kind of situation. It's not like they're playing some gotcha game. They don't come right out and say it, but, it's also not exactly hidden between the lines or in small print.
    - Kareem71 4y ago
BjoernKW 4y ago
> I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? The solution is obvious: Stop clinging to this backward butts-in-seats culture that has people move to a new location even if the job they're going to do can easily be done from anywhere in the world.
- robin_reala 4y ago
  I mean, that’s simply not true. At a most basic level, if you’re going to collaborate effectively as part of a team for a long period of time then you need to realistically be ± 3 time zones at most.
  - BjoernKW 4y ago
    That's only true if you're working entirely or mostly synchronously, which might be an indicator of inherent anti-patterns in your work culture and processes, e.g., lots of meetings instead of written documentation.
    - b800h 4y ago
      Like pair programming?
      - BjoernKW 4y ago
        While in most organizations pair programming probably is far less common than pointless meetings, even then it's preferable to document the outcomes of pair programming sessions, so others can benefit from those results without having to have been there synchronously or in person.
      - pas 4y ago
        works flawlessly remotely nowadays
    - oblio 4y ago
      The problem with this approach is that reality is the opposite. Good/best practices are rarely followed, maybe 20% of practitioners actually follow them in any field. So that means that on a daily basis, about 80% of people need to work in those "broken" environments.
IanCal 4y ago
> Do you keep them for 3 months just to be nice then proceed with the layoff anyway? I'm not sure that's much better... Much better than days of notice. The solutions seem pretty simple to me, contractually required notice periods. My last job I had either a two or three month notice period, I can't quite remember. For those coming over on visas, you could have an initial notice period that's longer. > I think maybe the best thing to do here is just to give good severance packages? Missing in this for the case of visas is about how long you're allowed to stay in the country without a job. A notice period should mean you're still employed, so that adds to any grace period around a visa. > You'd inevitably just end up protecting certain types of crappy situations (recently located) over other types of crappy situations (family member just died). Maybe, yeah. But protecting some people rather than none is an improvement, particularly when some cases are extremely easy to identify and may make a much larger proportion of people affected significantly.
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  > required notice periods But that’s socialism! Soon after, we’ll be eating our own dogs, who wants that? /s
goodpoint 4y ago
> I'm not sure what the solution is here? > Maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe look at how it's done in pretty much every other developed country in the world? Employees have notice periods and extra safety margins around visas. (Of course not in USA)
- whatwherewhy 4y ago
  30 days (the EU standard) are not really that much more than the usual 14 days in the US.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    30 days is in no way "the EU standard" and it's not even the minimum. In various countries the minimum can be longer than 30 days. More importantly, the average de-facto "standard" in many contracts is longer. Additionally, many companies go beyond the contract requirements.
    - pas 4y ago
      hm. in Hungary there's a trial period, 6 months (used to be 3), and both parties can terminate the employment without cause immediately during this
spockz 4y ago
I think this works on two levels. Yes, pay good severance packages which includes keep paying for the benefits. And in addition find them another sponsor. The sponsor thing is what is different for immigrants from all the other situations you mentioned. This should also be up to the government. When you get fired you shouldn’t outright lose your permit.
pas 4y ago
Who sells everything instantly when moving to a new job? What if it won't work out? I think for a few months the company should subsidize renting a place, so new hires who move are not forced to liquidate everything back home. (Relocation packages are a thing after all.)

by kypro 4y ago

Msurrow 4y ago

The solution is right there in OPs post: “give them three months on the books to find somewhere else that don't count against their visa. It will give them a chance to get settled and go on interviews.” Thats it. HR knows who is working on visa. Inform them of the situation, give them 3 months, take away all their accesses and let them spend the 3 months to look for a new job. Meta makes a bazillion USD pr year. Even if they had to pay 1000 workers on visa for 3 months it wont make a dent in their profits. For the employee that just relocated, on the other hand, this makes all the difference in the world. Corporate greed is disgusting when its put above Human decency like this.

murderfs 4y ago
Isn't this literally what's happening? (Except it's 4 months, not 3?)
- adulion 4y ago
  he's probably been given the pay but not the time to find his feet
- m000 4y ago
  The problem is not so much the money, but the damn Visa: The moment you become unemployed, the countdown clock to deportation starts ticking. This is a HUGE stress, and also puts you at a disadvantage against your prospect employers. IMHO, there should be legislation for covering these cases. I.e. when you sponsor a Visa as an employer, it should be mandatory to pay the employee for a minimum of 12-24 months. If you want to lay them off, that's fine, but legally they would still be considered employed and paid in full until that grace period expires.
  - Avicebron 4y ago
    This why it happens, the company I work with would rather hire someone who is in a tight bind if their employment goes away, they'll work harder, be scared to lose it. etc. its called the H1B solution
  - blarghyblarg 4y ago
    Depending on the type of visa, it's not even like the situation depends on employment. I've seen a few people with stable jobs sent home from the US when their visa came up for renewal. Immigrating to the west, the USA in particular but also Canada, involves an element of luck, beyond what most people realize. edit: To be very fair, though, there is an implicit warning in the paperwork and interview for every US work visa for exactly this kind of situation. It's not like they're playing some gotcha game. They don't come right out and say it, but, it's also not exactly hidden between the lines or in small print.
  - Kareem71 4y ago

BjoernKW 4y ago

> I do agree, but I guess I'm not sure what the solution is here? The solution is obvious: Stop clinging to this backward butts-in-seats culture that has people move to a new location even if the job they're going to do can easily be done from anywhere in the world.

robin_reala 4y ago
I mean, that’s simply not true. At a most basic level, if you’re going to collaborate effectively as part of a team for a long period of time then you need to realistically be ± 3 time zones at most.
- BjoernKW 4y ago
  That's only true if you're working entirely or mostly synchronously, which might be an indicator of inherent anti-patterns in your work culture and processes, e.g., lots of meetings instead of written documentation.
  - b800h 4y ago
    Like pair programming?
    - BjoernKW 4y ago
      While in most organizations pair programming probably is far less common than pointless meetings, even then it's preferable to document the outcomes of pair programming sessions, so others can benefit from those results without having to have been there synchronously or in person.
    - pas 4y ago
      works flawlessly remotely nowadays
  - oblio 4y ago
    The problem with this approach is that reality is the opposite. Good/best practices are rarely followed, maybe 20% of practitioners actually follow them in any field. So that means that on a daily basis, about 80% of people need to work in those "broken" environments.

IanCal 4y ago

> Do you keep them for 3 months just to be nice then proceed with the layoff anyway? I'm not sure that's much better... Much better than days of notice. The solutions seem pretty simple to me, contractually required notice periods. My last job I had either a two or three month notice period, I can't quite remember. For those coming over on visas, you could have an initial notice period that's longer. > I think maybe the best thing to do here is just to give good severance packages? Missing in this for the case of visas is about how long you're allowed to stay in the country without a job. A notice period should mean you're still employed, so that adds to any grace period around a visa. > You'd inevitably just end up protecting certain types of crappy situations (recently located) over other types of crappy situations (family member just died). Maybe, yeah. But protecting some people rather than none is an improvement, particularly when some cases are extremely easy to identify and may make a much larger proportion of people affected significantly.

ricardobeat 4y ago
> required notice periods But that’s socialism! Soon after, we’ll be eating our own dogs, who wants that? /s

goodpoint 4y ago

> I'm not sure what the solution is here? > Maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe look at how it's done in pretty much every other developed country in the world? Employees have notice periods and extra safety margins around visas. (Of course not in USA)

whatwherewhy 4y ago
30 days (the EU standard) are not really that much more than the usual 14 days in the US.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  30 days is in no way "the EU standard" and it's not even the minimum. In various countries the minimum can be longer than 30 days. More importantly, the average de-facto "standard" in many contracts is longer. Additionally, many companies go beyond the contract requirements.
  - pas 4y ago
    hm. in Hungary there's a trial period, 6 months (used to be 3), and both parties can terminate the employment without cause immediately during this

spockz 4y ago

I think this works on two levels. Yes, pay good severance packages which includes keep paying for the benefits. And in addition find them another sponsor. The sponsor thing is what is different for immigrants from all the other situations you mentioned. This should also be up to the government. When you get fired you shouldn’t outright lose your permit.

pas 4y ago

Who sells everything instantly when moving to a new job? What if it won't work out? I think for a few months the company should subsidize renting a place, so new hires who move are not forced to liquidate everything back home. (Relocation packages are a thing after all.)