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> Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. Oh, and

> Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. Oh, and we not only had to professionally translate those vows in written form, we also had to have a verbal translator on-hand in case, you know, I didn't understand the vows I had already translated and was signing in English. Also, it didn't matter if I spoke Italian or not. Italian bureaucracy is famously sclerotic. This isn't even a point of debate. It is among the very worst in the world. > Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one Yes. It is a classic source of corruption and incompetence. Similarly, lots of other national-level things insanely have to get the sign-off by tiny local governments in Italy, such as Permesso di Soggiorno (Italian Green Cards -- that one was fun), passports, etc. My young sons, who both are entitled to Italian passports, had the processing of their passports delayed for the better part of a year (baffling the Italian Embassy) because a tiny local city council in Italy couldn't understand their names and so stuck the passport applications in a drawer and forgot about them. Note that we had submitted those applications in Washington, DC. We had to have a local relative go to the city hall and knock some heads. For national passports! I'm baffled how you can possibly think this is normal and that I am "entitled". Italian bureaucracy and ducking responsibility is despised by both Italians in Italy and people abroad. The bureaucrats themselves apologize for it vigorously. There are entire movies made about it.

Scarblac 4y ago
> In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. That is so strange to me. In many European contracts, by default (unless you modify it with further contracts), marriage makes you co-owner of each other's property _and debts_, it makes you responsible for caring for each other no matter what happens, it automatically recognizes both sides as parents of any children born during the marriage, and so on. Even in case of divorce later there are alimony rights, and if there are children you probably have to deal with each other forever. How can you go into such a big arrangement with each other and not have it be a contract?
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  Because in the US violation of these rights is a criminal matter, not a civil one.
epolanski 4y ago
> In the US a marriage is not a contract. See, that's what I mean by entitlement and arrogance, pretending that your laws are anything special, you didn't get married in the US. There's other laws here. There's pros and cons to that, among the pros is that stuff like divorce, alimoney, etc are straightforward and depend on the contract you signed when you get married. In your country, that's expensive lawyers matter. > Permesso di Soggiorno Absolutely false, immigration is handled by the interior ministry through the police, you request it at the immigration office of the Questura (police preccint) that is closer to wherever you are. Italian beaurocracy is definitely not the leanest on the planet, but really, it depends on what you need to do and who you are, opening a business here is extremely easy and fast, getting most documents is done *only* online and you rarely if ever need to really go to an office. Even if you lose your documents you don't even need to denounce it to the police anymore, it's all online. You need to understand that in Italy you're an alien, you're not from a country in the European Union, your legal status is not different than someone coming from Pakistan. You're not registered here, there's no records of your civil life, your schooling, your medical records, your previous legal statuses, your criminal record, your tax records, your act of birth, etc, etc, you obviously have to provide them yourself, and since they have not been produced in the European Union they need to be validated. Obviously many local councils lag in progress compared to national or regional legislation and their services likely lag compared to national or regional ones, I would not be surprised if there were hiccups, but all I read in your post is ignorance about the law, ignorance about what you were even doing and what and complains. You can say and think what you want but at the end of the day I'm Italian and I know how many times me or my family have to go through offices and lengthy beaurocratic processes and it is extremely rare that you ever need to go in person to an office for anything but your id, driving license and passport. Pretty much all of the rest can be done online and Italian beaurocracy has gone through massive amounts of modernization.
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  > > Permesso di Soggiorno > Absolutely false, immigration is handled by the interior ministry through the police, you request it at the immigration office of the Questura (police preccint) that is closer to wherever you are. I have been involved with applications three times now, twice in Rome and once in Forli. And I assure you based on rather personal experience that the local government is very deeply involved, much to the consternation of the Italian Embassy in DC. The difference in the application process between Rome and Forli is unbelievable. It's touted as uniform but very much is not. This includes the procedures for both obtaining materials and for submitting applications to your local carabinieri; and the outcomes vary widely for the same applicant. Unlike Forli, the system in Rome is very clearly designed to put up as many roadblocks as possible. Do not apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno in Rome.

Scarblac 4y ago

> In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. That is so strange to me. In many European contracts, by default (unless you modify it with further contracts), marriage makes you co-owner of each other's property _and debts_, it makes you responsible for caring for each other no matter what happens, it automatically recognizes both sides as parents of any children born during the marriage, and so on. Even in case of divorce later there are alimony rights, and if there are children you probably have to deal with each other forever. How can you go into such a big arrangement with each other and not have it be a contract?

SeanLuke 4y ago
Because in the US violation of these rights is a criminal matter, not a civil one.

epolanski 4y ago

> In the US a marriage is not a contract. See, that's what I mean by entitlement and arrogance, pretending that your laws are anything special, you didn't get married in the US. There's other laws here. There's pros and cons to that, among the pros is that stuff like divorce, alimoney, etc are straightforward and depend on the contract you signed when you get married. In your country, that's expensive lawyers matter. > Permesso di Soggiorno Absolutely false, immigration is handled by the interior ministry through the police, you request it at the immigration office of the Questura (police preccint) that is closer to wherever you are. Italian beaurocracy is definitely not the leanest on the planet, but really, it depends on what you need to do and who you are, opening a business here is extremely easy and fast, getting most documents is done *only* online and you rarely if ever need to really go to an office. Even if you lose your documents you don't even need to denounce it to the police anymore, it's all online. You need to understand that in Italy you're an alien, you're not from a country in the European Union, your legal status is not different than someone coming from Pakistan. You're not registered here, there's no records of your civil life, your schooling, your medical records, your previous legal statuses, your criminal record, your tax records, your act of birth, etc, etc, you obviously have to provide them yourself, and since they have not been produced in the European Union they need to be validated. Obviously many local councils lag in progress compared to national or regional legislation and their services likely lag compared to national or regional ones, I would not be surprised if there were hiccups, but all I read in your post is ignorance about the law, ignorance about what you were even doing and what and complains. You can say and think what you want but at the end of the day I'm Italian and I know how many times me or my family have to go through offices and lengthy beaurocratic processes and it is extremely rare that you ever need to go in person to an office for anything but your id, driving license and passport. Pretty much all of the rest can be done online and Italian beaurocracy has gone through massive amounts of modernization.

SeanLuke 4y ago
> > Permesso di Soggiorno > Absolutely false, immigration is handled by the interior ministry through the police, you request it at the immigration office of the Questura (police preccint) that is closer to wherever you are. I have been involved with applications three times now, twice in Rome and once in Forli. And I assure you based on rather personal experience that the local government is very deeply involved, much to the consternation of the Italian Embassy in DC. The difference in the application process between Rome and Forli is unbelievable. It's touted as uniform but very much is not. This includes the procedures for both obtaining materials and for submitting applications to your local carabinieri; and the outcomes vary widely for the same applicant. Unlike Forli, the system in Rome is very clearly designed to put up as many roadblocks as possible. Do not apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno in Rome.