5 ms·

> it's populace became more and more disenfranchised and apathetic as time went on You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical

> it's populace became more and more disenfranchised and apathetic as time went on You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical its fascinating. No one but white men could vote in the U.S. until the early 1900s when women were given the right to vote. And pretty much only white people were allowed to vote until 1965 when black people, Asians, etc were given the right to vote. The U.S. may call itself the oldest democracy but there are only a handful of democracies that so heavily disenfranchised such significant parts of their population as recently as the US did. It’s been a little more than 50 years where millions of people were not legally disenfranchised, so by any measure the US population has become more enfranchised. Further, as the chart in the Wikipedia page below show, voter turnout has been constantly increasing in the US (at least for Presidential elections) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_Stat... The evidence indicates that the populace is becoming less, not more apathetic.

mcclung 4y ago
> You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical its fascinating. > No one but white men could vote in the U.S. until the early 1900s when women were given the right to vote. > And pretty much only white people were allowed to vote until 1965 when black people, Asians, etc were given the right to vote. 15th Amendment gave black men the right to vote in 1870.
- klyrs 4y ago
  That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965. They had the right on paper, but not in practice.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965. They had the right on paper, but not in practice. That's making my point for me, all those imbeciles in Qanon were so detached from reality after being propagandized on Facebook by the CCP, Cambridge Analytica et al into thinking that they should vote for Trump or the World would fall apart, only to be left to question their false reality when the results didn't favour their outcome so they did what all disfranchised do when they feel the system is not on their side (which has historically favoured whites in the US), riot. My point stands, and that is that things have gotten past a melting point because no one wants to exit their insulated echo chambers they've resided and then were forced into during COVID rather than get involved and do the heavy lifting that it takes make actual progress. Political means is just one way by which effective change occurs at the local level, I didn't vote in the primary despite being told the red wave was imminent (which means nothing to me as I think it's a false dichotomy): but I have residence in a blue state and instead I took the time to volunteer locally and hand out food for those in need instead. It was a better use of my time and helped lessen misery, if only for a sort period, by feeding people. Moreover, do you know he actual voter participation rate in the US presidential election in 2016/2020? Do you know the demographics, and how few below 40 are actually voting? You speak about race and gender, when you really should be looking at how few non-boomers are involved in politics at all to see how alarming it really is.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      > My point stands, and that is that things have gotten past a melting point because no one wants to exit their insulated echo chambers including you because your descriptions are not at all why people voted for Trump. The guy publicly stood in front of a bunch of businessmen who were planning on taking more manufacturing overseas and told them if they did so he was going to tax the shit out of their imports. In the late 90's people started ordering drugs from Canada, websites started popping up allowing it. Until it was made illegal to do because these Canadian drugs weren't approved by the FDA (just by the Canadian version of it). Trump got rid of that law. None of the democratic presidents, including Obama, were willing to do it. Everyone always thinks their bubble is the non-bubble.
      - Melting_Harps 4y ago
        > Everyone always thinks their bubble is the non-bubble. His tariffs were a joke, I remember the one's he was threatening to put on wine, cheese and meats from EU and that still wouldn't have been enough to offset the immense national debt because the US simply doesn't have the the QC/QA to compete with some of their goods. And he gave concessions to large corps who subsequently were using illegal labour in the US--this was clear during COVID when all the migrant workers were getting sick and meat packing plants and with seasonal farm hands during harvest as he threatened to stop migration, which still affects people who have been here already to this day in the H1-N process. But I concede that their were more factors to it than those, no including the grift and Q-Anon BS, but honestly it's not worth the time.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965 Poll taxes were actually prohibited by the 24th Amendment in 1964, not the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And literacy tests weren't banned as a voting prerequisite in the whole country until 1970.
vanattab 4y ago
Your dates are wrong. And did you know that Switzerland the basting of direct democracy did't give women the right right to vote until 1971. Yeah you read that right 1971... what is even crazier is Liechtenstein was 1984...
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
And just to be crystal clear, because this often gets lost in the angst of racism, Native Americans got the ability to vote after blacks did. While Native American children went to boarding school where they would be punished for speaking their own language, and punished here means things like getting whipped while in the shower and being made to spend the night outside during the winter. I point this out because many people don't fully realize just how badly Native Americans have been treated in this country. It's not a competition, but sometimes it's good to remind people.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical its fascinating. > No one but white men could vote in the U.S. until the early 1900s when women were given the right to vote. Talk about blatantly ahistorical; nonwhites and nonmen could vote in some individual states before federally protected, and race was federally made invalid as a basis for denying voting rights with the 15th Amendment in 1870, 50 years before the same was done for sex by the 19th. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 is not what gave racial minorities voting rights, though it did address mechanisms by which states attempted to limit the effect of those rights. (As did the 24th Amendment, in 1964.)

mcclung 4y ago

> You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical its fascinating. > No one but white men could vote in the U.S. until the early 1900s when women were given the right to vote. > And pretty much only white people were allowed to vote until 1965 when black people, Asians, etc were given the right to vote. 15th Amendment gave black men the right to vote in 1870.

klyrs 4y ago
That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965. They had the right on paper, but not in practice.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965. They had the right on paper, but not in practice. That's making my point for me, all those imbeciles in Qanon were so detached from reality after being propagandized on Facebook by the CCP, Cambridge Analytica et al into thinking that they should vote for Trump or the World would fall apart, only to be left to question their false reality when the results didn't favour their outcome so they did what all disfranchised do when they feel the system is not on their side (which has historically favoured whites in the US), riot. My point stands, and that is that things have gotten past a melting point because no one wants to exit their insulated echo chambers they've resided and then were forced into during COVID rather than get involved and do the heavy lifting that it takes make actual progress. Political means is just one way by which effective change occurs at the local level, I didn't vote in the primary despite being told the red wave was imminent (which means nothing to me as I think it's a false dichotomy): but I have residence in a blue state and instead I took the time to volunteer locally and hand out food for those in need instead. It was a better use of my time and helped lessen misery, if only for a sort period, by feeding people. Moreover, do you know he actual voter participation rate in the US presidential election in 2016/2020? Do you know the demographics, and how few below 40 are actually voting? You speak about race and gender, when you really should be looking at how few non-boomers are involved in politics at all to see how alarming it really is.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    > My point stands, and that is that things have gotten past a melting point because no one wants to exit their insulated echo chambers including you because your descriptions are not at all why people voted for Trump. The guy publicly stood in front of a bunch of businessmen who were planning on taking more manufacturing overseas and told them if they did so he was going to tax the shit out of their imports. In the late 90's people started ordering drugs from Canada, websites started popping up allowing it. Until it was made illegal to do because these Canadian drugs weren't approved by the FDA (just by the Canadian version of it). Trump got rid of that law. None of the democratic presidents, including Obama, were willing to do it. Everyone always thinks their bubble is the non-bubble.
    - Melting_Harps 4y ago
      > Everyone always thinks their bubble is the non-bubble. His tariffs were a joke, I remember the one's he was threatening to put on wine, cheese and meats from EU and that still wouldn't have been enough to offset the immense national debt because the US simply doesn't have the the QC/QA to compete with some of their goods. And he gave concessions to large corps who subsequently were using illegal labour in the US--this was clear during COVID when all the migrant workers were getting sick and meat packing plants and with seasonal farm hands during harvest as he threatened to stop migration, which still affects people who have been here already to this day in the H1-N process. But I concede that their were more factors to it than those, no including the grift and Q-Anon BS, but honestly it's not worth the time.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > That is technically true, but literacy tests, poll taxes and other voter suppression methods were legal until 1965 Poll taxes were actually prohibited by the 24th Amendment in 1964, not the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And literacy tests weren't banned as a voting prerequisite in the whole country until 1970.

vanattab 4y ago

Your dates are wrong. And did you know that Switzerland the basting of direct democracy did't give women the right right to vote until 1971. Yeah you read that right 1971... what is even crazier is Liechtenstein was 1984...

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

And just to be crystal clear, because this often gets lost in the angst of racism, Native Americans got the ability to vote after blacks did. While Native American children went to boarding school where they would be punished for speaking their own language, and punished here means things like getting whipped while in the shower and being made to spend the night outside during the winter. I point this out because many people don't fully realize just how badly Native Americans have been treated in this country. It's not a competition, but sometimes it's good to remind people.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> You see claims like this all the time but they are so blatantly ahistorical its fascinating. > No one but white men could vote in the U.S. until the early 1900s when women were given the right to vote. Talk about blatantly ahistorical; nonwhites and nonmen could vote in some individual states before federally protected, and race was federally made invalid as a basis for denying voting rights with the 15th Amendment in 1870, 50 years before the same was done for sex by the 19th. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 is not what gave racial minorities voting rights, though it did address mechanisms by which states attempted to limit the effect of those rights. (As did the 24th Amendment, in 1964.)