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there is no horror in c++. it is a better investment of your time IMHO to learn patterns and best practices and learn how things work at a low level instead of

by b20000 4y ago

there is no horror in c++. it is a better investment of your time IMHO to learn patterns and best practices and learn how things work at a low level instead of learning a language like rust which attempts to hide difficult work from you and make your life easier. in the end you will pay for that when you finally understand there are no shortcuts and you really need to understand how the machine, memory management and operating systems work. rust cannot fill that void.

eloff 4y ago
Rust is a systems language, like C++. I don't think your comparison is fair. Also I've done a lot of C++ programming over the years, and I won't willingly go back to that. It is a horror in my opinion.
- b20000 4y ago
  The selling point of Rust is that it hides complexity from you and gives you "safe" memory management. That comes at a price.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    No, the selling point of Rust is that it exposes the full complexity of systems while providing safe memory management. Being able to dereference a null pointer without a clear override isn't complexity, it's just bad language design.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Rust doesn’t hide complexity. It forces you to acknowledge it and handle it. Rust largely won’t let you write the wrong thing, but you have to fully understand the nuts and bolts to know what it will let you do.
cyber_kinetist 4y ago
Rust doesn’t handhold you for anything low-level. It’s just that Rust hides all that complexity beneath Unsafe Rust, which is an eldritch language that no one quite knows all the rules yet (including things related to undefined behavior…) I hope the MiniRust project (https://github.com/RalfJung/minirust https://github.com/RalfJung/minirust) succeeds in writing a formal spec of it someday.
- b20000 4y ago
  ok, so you just confirmed rust does some stuff behind the scenes for you. and that comes at a cost. what is more important is to understand how to architecturally build software and achieve performance and maintainability and so on. i rather spend my limited hours becoming better in a language like c or c++ which is not going away anytime soon than learning syntax, a new way of thinking and a package management system i don’t need.
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  - howinteresting 4y ago
    The performance ceiling of C++ is substantially lower than that of Rust. For example, it is roughly impossible for humans to use `restrict` with C or C++, while it's a completely normal part of writing Rust (and LLVM optimizations have finally been turned on: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/54878 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/54878) Also see https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/103070 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/103070 and https://reviews.llvm.org/D136659 https://reviews.llvm.org/D136659, which start introducing further Rust-specific optimizations.

by b20000 4y ago

eloff 4y ago

Rust is a systems language, like C++. I don't think your comparison is fair. Also I've done a lot of C++ programming over the years, and I won't willingly go back to that. It is a horror in my opinion.

b20000 4y ago
The selling point of Rust is that it hides complexity from you and gives you "safe" memory management. That comes at a price.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  No, the selling point of Rust is that it exposes the full complexity of systems while providing safe memory management. Being able to dereference a null pointer without a clear override isn't complexity, it's just bad language design.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Rust doesn’t hide complexity. It forces you to acknowledge it and handle it. Rust largely won’t let you write the wrong thing, but you have to fully understand the nuts and bolts to know what it will let you do.

cyber_kinetist 4y ago

Rust doesn’t handhold you for anything low-level. It’s just that Rust hides all that complexity beneath Unsafe Rust, which is an eldritch language that no one quite knows all the rules yet (including things related to undefined behavior…) I hope the MiniRust project (https://github.com/RalfJung/minirust https://github.com/RalfJung/minirust) succeeds in writing a formal spec of it someday.

b20000 4y ago
ok, so you just confirmed rust does some stuff behind the scenes for you. and that comes at a cost. what is more important is to understand how to architecturally build software and achieve performance and maintainability and so on. i rather spend my limited hours becoming better in a language like c or c++ which is not going away anytime soon than learning syntax, a new way of thinking and a package management system i don’t need.
- deleted 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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- howinteresting 4y ago
  The performance ceiling of C++ is substantially lower than that of Rust. For example, it is roughly impossible for humans to use `restrict` with C or C++, while it's a completely normal part of writing Rust (and LLVM optimizations have finally been turned on: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/54878 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/54878) Also see https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/103070 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/103070 and https://reviews.llvm.org/D136659 https://reviews.llvm.org/D136659, which start introducing further Rust-specific optimizations.