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My wife and I live in the United States but got married in Italy at her hometown city hall. She is Italian and I am American. She wanted to do this badly, but

My wife and I live in the United States but got married in Italy at her hometown city hall. She is Italian and I am American. She wanted to do this badly, but for an American and an Italian to get married in Italy is an extraordinarily complicated process. It involved having witnesses present themselves at the US Embassy (conveniently we're in DC) to vouchsafe that I am not already married, and to have witnesses to vouchsafe for my witnesses. It also involved a huge back-and-forth between the embassy and the local city hall in my wife's hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority. I had to go through some weird procedure because I was having a civil and not catholic church wedding. I had to have wedding vows drawn up in both Italian and English, and have a person available to translate in real time to make sure that I understood my vows (because apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not). The entire thing required numerous notorizations, forms, and literally dozens of people along the way apologizing for the suffocating Italian bureaucray which of course, they were part of. Along the entire way every single bureaucrat asked me the exact same question: "Why don't you just get married in the US?"

epolanski 4y ago
> apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract, you HAVE to understand what you're signing for your own good and it is the same reason the notary had to read 3 times the same thing in the article. > the local city hall in my wife's hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one, and the responsibility falls on the mayor or its representative (which likely married you). Of course the city hall is going to need plenty of documents, especially in the case of a foreigner (and alien). I'm baffled by how much entitlement Americans have in Europe. Bashing on our beaurocracy while not even bothering to understand what you are doing nor why.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  In the US marriage is 100% handled by state governments. In California you just need to get a marriage license, sign it, and turn it back in. I think a difference between the US and European countries is in the US legal documents don't have the same weight of finality as they do in Europe.
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  > Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. Oh, and we not only had to professionally translate those vows in written form, we also had to have a verbal translator on-hand in case, you know, I didn't understand the vows I had already translated and was signing in English. Also, it didn't matter if I spoke Italian or not. Italian bureaucracy is famously sclerotic. This isn't even a point of debate. It is among the very worst in the world. > Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one Yes. It is a classic source of corruption and incompetence. Similarly, lots of other national-level things insanely have to get the sign-off by tiny local governments in Italy, such as Permesso di Soggiorno (Italian Green Cards -- that one was fun), passports, etc. My young sons, who both are entitled to Italian passports, had the processing of their passports delayed for the better part of a year (baffling the Italian Embassy) because a tiny local city council in Italy couldn't understand their names and so stuck the passport applications in a drawer and forgot about them. Note that we had submitted those applications in Washington, DC. We had to have a local relative go to the city hall and knock some heads. For national passports! I'm baffled how you can possibly think this is normal and that I am "entitled". Italian bureaucracy and ducking responsibility is despised by both Italians in Italy and people abroad. The bureaucrats themselves apologize for it vigorously. There are entire movies made about it.
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    > In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. That is so strange to me. In many European contracts, by default (unless you modify it with further contracts), marriage makes you co-owner of each other's property _and debts_, it makes you responsible for caring for each other no matter what happens, it automatically recognizes both sides as parents of any children born during the marriage, and so on. Even in case of divorce later there are alimony rights, and if there are children you probably have to deal with each other forever. How can you go into such a big arrangement with each other and not have it be a contract?
    - 4y ago
- seydor 4y ago
  let's agree in spirit, but reading aloud does not make one understand anything That stuff is medieval crap that should be summarily removed from european and american bureaucracy

epolanski 4y ago

> apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract, you HAVE to understand what you're signing for your own good and it is the same reason the notary had to read 3 times the same thing in the article. > the local city hall in my wife's hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one, and the responsibility falls on the mayor or its representative (which likely married you). Of course the city hall is going to need plenty of documents, especially in the case of a foreigner (and alien). I'm baffled by how much entitlement Americans have in Europe. Bashing on our beaurocracy while not even bothering to understand what you are doing nor why.

Gibbon1 4y ago
In the US marriage is 100% handled by state governments. In California you just need to get a marriage license, sign it, and turn it back in. I think a difference between the US and European countries is in the US legal documents don't have the same weight of finality as they do in Europe.
SeanLuke 4y ago
> Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. Oh, and we not only had to professionally translate those vows in written form, we also had to have a verbal translator on-hand in case, you know, I didn't understand the vows I had already translated and was signing in English. Also, it didn't matter if I spoke Italian or not. Italian bureaucracy is famously sclerotic. This isn't even a point of debate. It is among the very worst in the world. > Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one Yes. It is a classic source of corruption and incompetence. Similarly, lots of other national-level things insanely have to get the sign-off by tiny local governments in Italy, such as Permesso di Soggiorno (Italian Green Cards -- that one was fun), passports, etc. My young sons, who both are entitled to Italian passports, had the processing of their passports delayed for the better part of a year (baffling the Italian Embassy) because a tiny local city council in Italy couldn't understand their names and so stuck the passport applications in a drawer and forgot about them. Note that we had submitted those applications in Washington, DC. We had to have a local relative go to the city hall and knock some heads. For national passports! I'm baffled how you can possibly think this is normal and that I am "entitled". Italian bureaucracy and ducking responsibility is despised by both Italians in Italy and people abroad. The bureaucrats themselves apologize for it vigorously. There are entire movies made about it.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  > In the US a marriage is not a contract. We are not Ferengi. A marriage is a license from the state. That is so strange to me. In many European contracts, by default (unless you modify it with further contracts), marriage makes you co-owner of each other's property _and debts_, it makes you responsible for caring for each other no matter what happens, it automatically recognizes both sides as parents of any children born during the marriage, and so on. Even in case of divorce later there are alimony rights, and if there are children you probably have to deal with each other forever. How can you go into such a big arrangement with each other and not have it be a contract?
  - 4y ago
seydor 4y ago
let's agree in spirit, but reading aloud does not make one understand anything That stuff is medieval crap that should be summarily removed from european and american bureaucracy