5 ms·

Now go the other way. Open source project to replace the SMARTS in TVs with something less ad infested. Bonus points if you can do it all in software but hone

Now go the other way. Open source project to replace the SMARTS in TVs with something less ad infested. Bonus points if you can do it all in software but honestly, I'd pay $200 for a replacement board to remove ads and put the device under my control!

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Yeah, I'm surprised that we have aftermarket firmware for phones and some embedded devices, but not for TVs or printers. Maybe the space is just more fragmented?
- sandwell 4y ago
  > Maybe the space is just more fragmented? Android is pretty darn fragmented though. I expect that aftermarket firmware would be an issue for content providers. For example, is Netflix going to allow third party firmware developers to create an app to access their content? They will already have contracts with content distributors like Lionsgate that mandate DRM in their own apps to prevent piracy. If your aftermarket firmware doesn't support Netflix, Prime, HBO, etc then it might have limited appeal. Browser based apps might get around that in a limited way. As for printers, I think of them as loss leaders to generate ink sales. Don't know either space particularly well so might be wrong.
  - adql 4y ago
    I'd imagine target audience for that would just stream stuff out of their NAS. But it is interesting, I wonder how much efficiency do you lose with hardware accelerated browser vs dedicated app?
    - sandwell 4y ago
      Yes, Kodi and Plex have got that covered, and no risk of bricking your TV.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    Yeah, I wondered about the Android situation; Android itself is semi-standard, in that once you get the hardware support and a way to run your image it's not too hard to build AOSP for nearly any phone. On the other hand, that bit about getting a way to run your own ROM is, on average, awful and device-specific. Still, I suspect that it's better than TVs that run completely different OSs to start with. Edit: Oh, and AFAIK a lot of those OSs aren't FOSS in the first place, which makes things harder; at least with Android the vendor is legally obligated to give you the kernel source and then you can stick that in AOSP and probably get a working image. Other than WebOS, I don't think TVs have an equivalent. Agreed that content support and DRM are a difficulty. I know that the ink price gouging is part of why printers are weird, but that results in the default firmware being user-hostile in a way that I would have expected to make people want aftermarket firmware all the more. I suspect that the difficulty there is also something about fragmentation and perhaps a lack of devices that even try to be open (Google publishes all the documentation and source to build AOSP for a Pixel phone; I'm aware of zero printer vendors doing so).
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
    If the aftermarket firmware doesn't support Netflix, then users will have to choose between not having Netflix and having the features the aftermarket firmware enables. If that aftermarket firmware enables better playback of pirated content, and the Netflix catalog deteriorates more and more with time, it's more and more likely that of the people who'd consider alternative firmware in the first place, more and more will decide against Netflix in that scenario. Not that that may be enough people for Netflix to care, but it could easily be enough that "no netflix" is no longer a blocker for acceptance of the alternative firmware.
    - sandwell 4y ago
      Kodi and Plex provide a way to play pirated content, but Netflix and their competitors still dominate. They have an incentive to provide easy access to their media, so pirating is always going to be more complex, which will be a barrier to the majority.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  I'm out of my league here but could it be that the tech behind TVs is changing too rapidly? LCD, LED, OLDED, QLED, MINILED, and all sub-differences in each generation. Plus all the brands: SAMSUNG, LG, BOE, ect. Plus all the different screen dimentions and levels of HD, dolby vision ect. Whereas with smartphones, everyone is basically using a samsung display, snapdragon or samsung processor and android. Could this be a factor in why there is so little third party implementations? This could be something Khronos could work to standardize; that is, if display makers want it, which I doubt)
  - hakfoo 4y ago
    I always figured that the TV design is still "panel with one of a narrow range of common interfaces, and the smarts being on the controller." Otherwise it would be difficult for small manufacturers-- who are typically not custom-ordering panels, and likely switching between vendors based on best-offer-of-the-day-- to integrate in a reasonable manner.
- walterbell 4y ago
  For some LG TVs: https://rootmy.tv/ https://rootmy.tv/
  - pabs3 4y ago
    A couple more: https://openlgtv.github.io/ https://openlgtv.github.io/ https://www.samygo.tv/ https://www.samygo.tv/
- cvwright 4y ago
  Apparently LineageOS works on some AndroidTV devices, including one that you can get at Walmart.
- adql 4y ago
  Most likely, especially for non android devices. Most TVs have barely few years of manufacturer support. Printers at the very least have excuse of a lot of hardware specific code to drive the head but TVs are pretty much tuner + screen + internet connection. Also people wanting OSS on their TV tend to just use TV as dumb screen and connect the whatever small device with HDMI they have on their hands and not add "runs this board" to the analysis paralysis
jojobas 4y ago
If you don't mind the open source thingie being outside the TV, why not get a Raspberry Pi with LibreElec on it?
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  RPi with LibreElec is nice. But inside the TV is the main point. I was wanting something more like OpenWRT or Canon CHDK or similar to control the TV itself.
  - jacob019 4y ago
    It's a cool project, but you can always just keep the TV offline and use it for HDMI input only.
    - peatmoss 4y ago
      Our TCL Roku TV is slow as molasses to turn on and do stuff. Since we solely use it with an Apple TV device, I'd LOVE firmware that simply booted fast and allowed me to switch between inputs.
  - geerlingguy 4y ago
    For that you can get a commercial display with either an Intel board or a Pi CM4... but those displays cost a bit more than normal consumer smart TVs.
    - adql 4y ago
      Yeah, that's the problem, you're essentially getting less hardware for more money. And if you have to source your own SBC might as well just pick the cheapest TV and connect it via HDMI...
- pmontra 4y ago
  "get a Raspberry Pi" is quite difficult nowadays.
pabs3 4y ago
Hopefully Software Freedom Conservancy's GPL compliance lawsuit against Vizio will result in more of the necessary source code becoming publicly available, merged into existing operating systems like OpenWRT, Alpine or Debian and then projects like Kodi or KDE Plasma Bigscreen ported to run on top. If Conservancy win under their current strategy, then that would enable any recipient of a Linux based TV to sue the vendor for GPL compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://plasma-bigscreen.org/ https://plasma-bigscreen.org/
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  They'll just start locking bootloaders.
  - pabs3 4y ago
    I expect they already do. Doing that isn't GPL compliant though. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t...
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > Doing that isn't GPL compliant though. Oooh. Could this be used to fight against smartphone vendors that do not allow unlocking bootloaders - or trip permanent fuses like Samsung does?
      - benj111 4y ago
        Doubtful on the permanent fuse front. Seems acceptable from a warranty pov. Obviously if they refuse to replace your cracked screen because you've changed the firmware then it's unacceptable.
      - pabs3 4y ago
        It is really costly and time consuming to enforce the GPL, but potentially. I haven't heard about the fuse thing, how does that work? Edit: found this article: https://www.androidpolice.com/2015/11/06/why-does-my-android-phone-have-efuses-and-why-should-i-care-about-them/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2015/11/06/why-does-my-android...

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

Yeah, I'm surprised that we have aftermarket firmware for phones and some embedded devices, but not for TVs or printers. Maybe the space is just more fragmented?

sandwell 4y ago
> Maybe the space is just more fragmented? Android is pretty darn fragmented though. I expect that aftermarket firmware would be an issue for content providers. For example, is Netflix going to allow third party firmware developers to create an app to access their content? They will already have contracts with content distributors like Lionsgate that mandate DRM in their own apps to prevent piracy. If your aftermarket firmware doesn't support Netflix, Prime, HBO, etc then it might have limited appeal. Browser based apps might get around that in a limited way. As for printers, I think of them as loss leaders to generate ink sales. Don't know either space particularly well so might be wrong.
- adql 4y ago
  I'd imagine target audience for that would just stream stuff out of their NAS. But it is interesting, I wonder how much efficiency do you lose with hardware accelerated browser vs dedicated app?
  - sandwell 4y ago
    Yes, Kodi and Plex have got that covered, and no risk of bricking your TV.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  Yeah, I wondered about the Android situation; Android itself is semi-standard, in that once you get the hardware support and a way to run your image it's not too hard to build AOSP for nearly any phone. On the other hand, that bit about getting a way to run your own ROM is, on average, awful and device-specific. Still, I suspect that it's better than TVs that run completely different OSs to start with. Edit: Oh, and AFAIK a lot of those OSs aren't FOSS in the first place, which makes things harder; at least with Android the vendor is legally obligated to give you the kernel source and then you can stick that in AOSP and probably get a working image. Other than WebOS, I don't think TVs have an equivalent. Agreed that content support and DRM are a difficulty. I know that the ink price gouging is part of why printers are weird, but that results in the default firmware being user-hostile in a way that I would have expected to make people want aftermarket firmware all the more. I suspect that the difficulty there is also something about fragmentation and perhaps a lack of devices that even try to be open (Google publishes all the documentation and source to build AOSP for a Pixel phone; I'm aware of zero printer vendors doing so).
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  If the aftermarket firmware doesn't support Netflix, then users will have to choose between not having Netflix and having the features the aftermarket firmware enables. If that aftermarket firmware enables better playback of pirated content, and the Netflix catalog deteriorates more and more with time, it's more and more likely that of the people who'd consider alternative firmware in the first place, more and more will decide against Netflix in that scenario. Not that that may be enough people for Netflix to care, but it could easily be enough that "no netflix" is no longer a blocker for acceptance of the alternative firmware.
  - sandwell 4y ago
    Kodi and Plex provide a way to play pirated content, but Netflix and their competitors still dominate. They have an incentive to provide easy access to their media, so pirating is always going to be more complex, which will be a barrier to the majority.
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
I'm out of my league here but could it be that the tech behind TVs is changing too rapidly? LCD, LED, OLDED, QLED, MINILED, and all sub-differences in each generation. Plus all the brands: SAMSUNG, LG, BOE, ect. Plus all the different screen dimentions and levels of HD, dolby vision ect. Whereas with smartphones, everyone is basically using a samsung display, snapdragon or samsung processor and android. Could this be a factor in why there is so little third party implementations? This could be something Khronos could work to standardize; that is, if display makers want it, which I doubt)
- hakfoo 4y ago
  I always figured that the TV design is still "panel with one of a narrow range of common interfaces, and the smarts being on the controller." Otherwise it would be difficult for small manufacturers-- who are typically not custom-ordering panels, and likely switching between vendors based on best-offer-of-the-day-- to integrate in a reasonable manner.
walterbell 4y ago
For some LG TVs: https://rootmy.tv/ https://rootmy.tv/
- pabs3 4y ago
  A couple more: https://openlgtv.github.io/ https://openlgtv.github.io/ https://www.samygo.tv/ https://www.samygo.tv/
cvwright 4y ago
Apparently LineageOS works on some AndroidTV devices, including one that you can get at Walmart.
adql 4y ago
Most likely, especially for non android devices. Most TVs have barely few years of manufacturer support. Printers at the very least have excuse of a lot of hardware specific code to drive the head but TVs are pretty much tuner + screen + internet connection. Also people wanting OSS on their TV tend to just use TV as dumb screen and connect the whatever small device with HDMI they have on their hands and not add "runs this board" to the analysis paralysis

jojobas 4y ago

If you don't mind the open source thingie being outside the TV, why not get a Raspberry Pi with LibreElec on it?

_carbyau_ 4y ago
RPi with LibreElec is nice. But inside the TV is the main point. I was wanting something more like OpenWRT or Canon CHDK or similar to control the TV itself.
- jacob019 4y ago
  It's a cool project, but you can always just keep the TV offline and use it for HDMI input only.
  - peatmoss 4y ago
    Our TCL Roku TV is slow as molasses to turn on and do stuff. Since we solely use it with an Apple TV device, I'd LOVE firmware that simply booted fast and allowed me to switch between inputs.
- geerlingguy 4y ago
  For that you can get a commercial display with either an Intel board or a Pi CM4... but those displays cost a bit more than normal consumer smart TVs.
  - adql 4y ago
    Yeah, that's the problem, you're essentially getting less hardware for more money. And if you have to source your own SBC might as well just pick the cheapest TV and connect it via HDMI...
pmontra 4y ago
"get a Raspberry Pi" is quite difficult nowadays.

pabs3 4y ago

Hopefully Software Freedom Conservancy's GPL compliance lawsuit against Vizio will result in more of the necessary source code becoming publicly available, merged into existing operating systems like OpenWRT, Alpine or Debian and then projects like Kodi or KDE Plasma Bigscreen ported to run on top. If Conservancy win under their current strategy, then that would enable any recipient of a Linux based TV to sue the vendor for GPL compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://plasma-bigscreen.org/ https://plasma-bigscreen.org/

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
They'll just start locking bootloaders.
- pabs3 4y ago
  I expect they already do. Doing that isn't GPL compliant though. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t...
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > Doing that isn't GPL compliant though. Oooh. Could this be used to fight against smartphone vendors that do not allow unlocking bootloaders - or trip permanent fuses like Samsung does?
    - benj111 4y ago
      Doubtful on the permanent fuse front. Seems acceptable from a warranty pov. Obviously if they refuse to replace your cracked screen because you've changed the firmware then it's unacceptable.
    - pabs3 4y ago
      It is really costly and time consuming to enforce the GPL, but potentially. I haven't heard about the fuse thing, how does that work? Edit: found this article: https://www.androidpolice.com/2015/11/06/why-does-my-android-phone-have-efuses-and-why-should-i-care-about-them/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2015/11/06/why-does-my-android...