5 ms·

The federal government does not have the power to regulate interstate commerce, as you're describing, under the constitution. The federal government has the po

by nirvana 15y ago

The federal government does not have the power to regulate interstate commerce, as you're describing, under the constitution. The federal government has the power to ensure that no states forbid the importation of other states goods, or apply duties or tariffs to them. You're using "regulate" in the modern form and applying it to language that was written when the term had a different meaning. "Well regulated militia" means a militia free of encumbrances such that it can be functional, not one with a lot of extra-legislative rules applied to it. This is logical if you think about it- if they wanted the militia to be regulated, they would have laid out the ways he militia should be regulated, or at least enumerated the power to regulate the militia, in the enumerated powers clause. They did not. Further, "regulations" as we commonly understand them, are forbidden by the constitution, which explicitly denies the legislative branch the power to delegate its power to unelected bodies or to other branches. The fist amendment states, "congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech". Blocking access to websites clearly violates that. Thus congress is explicitly in violation of the constitution, without regard to anything any court might say. Further, US Code 18-242 makes it a crime (a felony if one is armed) to violate the constitutional rights of any citizen. This means that passing SOPA would be, itself, a crime, at least in my interpretation. The "shouting fire in a crowded theater" example does not refute the protections for free speech. In that case, the crime is not speaking the word fire while inside a theater, but in causing a panic, which is quite different. I'm sure the word "Fire" can be heard, often shouted, on broadway quite regularly, when the author of the play included it in the dialogue. I suggest that you take some time and read the constitution in its entirety. In fact, even better would be to get one of the many books that cover its writing, including citations of the intents and comments of the writers and past editions. The constitution is quite readable and quite explicit. It is also quite different from the result after "years of jurisprudence" and precedent, which, like I pointed out in my original post, suffer from the intrinsic corruption endemic to government. As Lysander Spooner once said, "either the constitution authorized such government as we have, or it has failed to prevent it." No ruling of any judge can overrule what is said in the constitution, and the constitution does not need to be interpreted very much, it is quite straight forward. The reason it is this way is that the founding fathers were no fools. They knew judges and politicians would use emotion, expidents and pressures to try and change the system for their ends. It is a testament to their foresight that the system has lasted as long as it has, but they knew it would ultimately fail. Thus they wrote a constitution that any american could read and comprehend, and they were quite clear that americans needed to take up arms against their government to ensure that the government remained restrained by the constitution: "The tree of liberty must be renewed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants, it is its natural manure." To the extent that our government bears little resemblance to the one outlined by this document, our government is one that is not authorized by the document, and thus wholly illegitimate. No amount of laws or court rulings can change this. To the extent that this divergence has persisted, we as a people have failed to uphold the vigilance that was required of us. Hierarchy simply means an arrangement between people with division of roles. Corporations are hierarchies but they are not governments. There is a key difference. Governments impose their will on those who are subjugated by force, with violence. If you're subject to the rule of a government you don't have a choice, even when the government is violating your rights (as it would be with SOPA). This is not the case with corporations, as employees, customers and owners of corporations all participate in the hierarchy on a voluntary basis. You are free to boycott them, resign your position, or sell your shares, if you disagree with the policies of the corporation. You have almost no recourse when you disagree with government. People can live in peace, and they can do it without governments, and they have successfully for centuries, under quite a variety of arrangements. The only reason for the prevalence of government we see today is the technology of warfare gave small bands of people the power to conquer and subjugate larger populations. But it is not the natural state of man, any more than other forms of slavery were a natural state when they were more prevalent.... and slavery in the form practiced in the United States in the past, and elsewhere in the world has lasted essentially as long as governments.... for exactly the same reason.

anigbrowl 15y ago
You seem to think the constitution is a legislative document. This is not the case, at all. That's why it provides for courts and a legislature.
shadowfiend 15y ago
“You're using "regulate" in the modern form and applying it to language that was written when the term had a different meaning.” The meaning of language, as with the meaning of law, evolves with the times. It's irrelevant what they meant in 1787. In 1787, landowners were a minority of the population, we were barely figuring out how to make machines, the concept of a calculating machine was a century away (ignoring, admittedly, the abacus), and communicating from one end of the then-tiny-by-comparison US to the other was a multi-day affair at best. Everything had a different meaning. Judicial review and amendment are the two processes that exist to help the law evolve with the times. What I am stating isn't my own interpretation of the regulation of interstate commerce, it is the current interpretation as the law of the land. I'm sorry you have a problem with that, but that's what the amendment process is for. “Further, "regulations" as we commonly understand them, are forbidden by the constitution, which explicitly denies the legislative branch the power to delegate its power to unelected bodies or to other branches.” You are once again acting as if judicial review is nonexistent. Your love of the Constitution evidently excludes a love of the underlying system that carries it forward, even though these are part and parcel of the package of American government. You don't get one without the other. If something is interpreted incorrectly in your mind by the Court, the thing to do is to amend the Constitution to make it clearer what the correct interpretation is. “The fist amendment states, "congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech". Blocking access to websites clearly violates that. Thus congress is explicitly in violation of the constitution, without regard to anything any court might say. Further, US Code 18-242 makes it a crime (a felony if one is armed) to violate the constitutional rights of any citizen. This means that passing SOPA would be, itself, a crime, at least in my interpretation.” If you argue that there is no power to regulate interstate commerce in the modern sense, obviously this follows. However, you are factually wrong, as current interpretations of the Constitutional allowances on interstate commerce clearly allow regulation of the Internet. Again, this is not to mention the Constitutional allowances for copyright enforcement. At which point, free speech is a much less clear argument, as it clashes with other provisions in the Constitution. In these cases, it is up to the judicial system to decide where that blurry line is. The argument being made for SOPA, not that I agree with it, is that piracy is harmful to the creators of Art, much like the panic would be harmful to the people within a theater. “It is also quite different from the result after "years of jurisprudence" and precedent, which, like I pointed out in my original post, suffer from the intrinsic corruption endemic to government.” There it is again. (a) The Constitution does not stand alone. It stood alone for as long as it took to people to start interpreting it in court. The very fact that the meaning of the document has evolved makes it obvious that despite how readable and explicit it may seem to be, there are many nuances to be found. (b) It is not 1787. It will never be 1787 again. Things change. The Constitution has some great concepts that we have moved away from and should perhaps move back towards, and it has some really shitty concepts that we tossed by the wayside, and good riddance. But to hold it up as a golden example of everything that was ever right with this country, and state repeatedly that if we only returned to its silken word everything would be glorious once more, is... Just incredibly frustrating. "The tree of liberty must be renewed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants, it is its natural manure." We do need periodic reminders that Thomas Jefferson could be a total nutcase, so thanks for that. The fact that he spoke the words doesn't make them scripture (and yes, I am getting more sarcastic as the arguments turn more religious). “Hierarchy simply means an arrangement between people with division of roles. Corporations are hierarchies but they are not governments.” Corporations only have no consequence if you can find another job once you leave. Arguably the current recession is an excellent example of a place where, for many people, corporations are like government, insofar that you have a choice of working for the corporation, or starving. Except you won't starve, because the government will provide some modest attempt at letting you survive. That said, you bring up governments and their imposition via violence. Yes. As it turns out, a hierarchy is meaningless if there is no enforcement of the decisions made higher up. In the case of government, your recourse is to leave your country and its government and go elsewhere. Especially as a US citizen, that is easier for you than it is for other people. I do want to see the examples you have of sustained, government-less establishments. I suspect that it will reveal more about what you define as government than it will new insight on the human condition. ----- All of this said, by the way, I don't necessarily think SOPA is Constitutional. It seems like it may very well not be (or perhaps more accurately should not be), and I don't like it one bit. But your dogmatic interpretation of the Constitution, and your lack of acknowledgement of the entire judicial infrastructure that keeps it functioning and evolving, is just as harrowing.

by nirvana 15y ago

anigbrowl 15y ago

You seem to think the constitution is a legislative document. This is not the case, at all. That's why it provides for courts and a legislature.

shadowfiend 15y ago

“You're using "regulate" in the modern form and applying it to language that was written when the term had a different meaning.” The meaning of language, as with the meaning of law, evolves with the times. It's irrelevant what they meant in 1787. In 1787, landowners were a minority of the population, we were barely figuring out how to make machines, the concept of a calculating machine was a century away (ignoring, admittedly, the abacus), and communicating from one end of the then-tiny-by-comparison US to the other was a multi-day affair at best. Everything had a different meaning. Judicial review and amendment are the two processes that exist to help the law evolve with the times. What I am stating isn't my own interpretation of the regulation of interstate commerce, it is the current interpretation as the law of the land. I'm sorry you have a problem with that, but that's what the amendment process is for. “Further, "regulations" as we commonly understand them, are forbidden by the constitution, which explicitly denies the legislative branch the power to delegate its power to unelected bodies or to other branches.” You are once again acting as if judicial review is nonexistent. Your love of the Constitution evidently excludes a love of the underlying system that carries it forward, even though these are part and parcel of the package of American government. You don't get one without the other. If something is interpreted incorrectly in your mind by the Court, the thing to do is to amend the Constitution to make it clearer what the correct interpretation is. “The fist amendment states, "congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech". Blocking access to websites clearly violates that. Thus congress is explicitly in violation of the constitution, without regard to anything any court might say. Further, US Code 18-242 makes it a crime (a felony if one is armed) to violate the constitutional rights of any citizen. This means that passing SOPA would be, itself, a crime, at least in my interpretation.” If you argue that there is no power to regulate interstate commerce in the modern sense, obviously this follows. However, you are factually wrong, as current interpretations of the Constitutional allowances on interstate commerce clearly allow regulation of the Internet. Again, this is not to mention the Constitutional allowances for copyright enforcement. At which point, free speech is a much less clear argument, as it clashes with other provisions in the Constitution. In these cases, it is up to the judicial system to decide where that blurry line is. The argument being made for SOPA, not that I agree with it, is that piracy is harmful to the creators of Art, much like the panic would be harmful to the people within a theater. “It is also quite different from the result after "years of jurisprudence" and precedent, which, like I pointed out in my original post, suffer from the intrinsic corruption endemic to government.” There it is again. (a) The Constitution does not stand alone. It stood alone for as long as it took to people to start interpreting it in court. The very fact that the meaning of the document has evolved makes it obvious that despite how readable and explicit it may seem to be, there are many nuances to be found. (b) It is not 1787. It will never be 1787 again. Things change. The Constitution has some great concepts that we have moved away from and should perhaps move back towards, and it has some really shitty concepts that we tossed by the wayside, and good riddance. But to hold it up as a golden example of everything that was ever right with this country, and state repeatedly that if we only returned to its silken word everything would be glorious once more, is... Just incredibly frustrating. "The tree of liberty must be renewed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants, it is its natural manure." We do need periodic reminders that Thomas Jefferson could be a total nutcase, so thanks for that. The fact that he spoke the words doesn't make them scripture (and yes, I am getting more sarcastic as the arguments turn more religious). “Hierarchy simply means an arrangement between people with division of roles. Corporations are hierarchies but they are not governments.” Corporations only have no consequence if you can find another job once you leave. Arguably the current recession is an excellent example of a place where, for many people, corporations are like government, insofar that you have a choice of working for the corporation, or starving. Except you won't starve, because the government will provide some modest attempt at letting you survive. That said, you bring up governments and their imposition via violence. Yes. As it turns out, a hierarchy is meaningless if there is no enforcement of the decisions made higher up. In the case of government, your recourse is to leave your country and its government and go elsewhere. Especially as a US citizen, that is easier for you than it is for other people. I do want to see the examples you have of sustained, government-less establishments. I suspect that it will reveal more about what you define as government than it will new insight on the human condition. ----- All of this said, by the way, I don't necessarily think SOPA is Constitutional. It seems like it may very well not be (or perhaps more accurately should not be), and I don't like it one bit. But your dogmatic interpretation of the Constitution, and your lack of acknowledgement of the entire judicial infrastructure that keeps it functioning and evolving, is just as harrowing.