3 ms·

While I agree with most of your point, > By their very nature, being restricted to text input and output these models can not be general. Humans only have fiv

While I agree with most of your point, > By their very nature, being restricted to text input and output these models can not be general. Humans only have five types of I/O, yet are general intelligences. I don’t think having limited I/O means is enough to restrict something from being generally intelligent

sudosysgen 4y ago
GPT's IO is not text, its bytes. It can't handle different byte structures, humans can.
- yarg 4y ago
  The doesn't seem too relevant - the most important part (in terms of whether or not you're dealing with an intelligence) is how the data is process - not how it's imported.
  - GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago
    Indeed, the "data per unit time" is a required parameter for human intelligence. It is useful to grade the 5 senses in bits per second, and I'll make some very wild (and wrong) guesses: Sight 1e6 bits/sec - our primary high-bandwidth connection to the Real World Sound 1e4 bits/sec - again an average, probably less than this Touch, Taste, Smell: 1e2 bit/sec The Temporal Nature of problems (e.g., how quickly is this lion coming at me before he eats me) is essential for a true AGI to understand. In the limit, could an AGI exist with only 20 WPM Morse Code I/O? Or 10 CPS of a Model 33 TTY ? I dunno...
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > The Temporal Nature of problems (e.g., how quickly is this lion coming at me before he eats me) is essential for a true AGI to understand. I agree that figuring out that A happens before B seems important. But I don't see why an AGI would have to operate on the same timescale as we do (well, assuming they wouldn't have to worry about being eaten by lions or interacting with humans). > In the limit, could an AGI exist with only 20 WPM Morse Code I/O? Or 10 CPS of a Model 33 TTY ? I dunno... My guess would be that yes, it could exist in that scenario, but the AGI would only start to operate at a significant intelligence level once enough useful data had been gathered and processed, which is probably a huge amount (so it would take a huge amount of time). But if the AGI had already been trained with huge amounts of data, then operating in a limited environment perhaps would be no problem at all (although the limited interface might greatly limit its rate of further development).
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    Yes, that's what I'm pointing at. General intelligence is flexible enough that it allows for great flexibility in the formatting of data. The fact that you can only deal with a very narrow kind of data structure points against general intelligence.
constantcrying 4y ago
Sure. I think that is a valid point. Interestingly Text is not some I/O a human natively supports. The support for that is a complete hack! For an AGI my expectation would be that it can broadly interpret reality. The human vision system is just one peculiar way to gather information about light, yet it allows them to make very sophisticated judgments about reality, e.g. "there is a tiger down there by tye river and it is running at me fast". An AGI should be able to gather information about reality and be able to make similar judgements, given some comparable input. In some sense most AIs are also "cheating", since their I/O is far less fuzzy then what humans have to deal with...
- wizeman 4y ago
  > The human vision system is just one peculiar way to gather information about light, yet it allows them to make very sophisticated judgments about reality, e.g. "there is a tiger down there by tye river and it is running at me fast". > An AGI should be able to gather information about reality and be able to make similar judgements I just asked GPT-3 this question and here's what it said (on the first and only try): Q: There's a tiger running at you fast. What are you going to do? A: I would try to run away from the tiger as fast as I could. If that wasn't possible, I would try to climb a tree or hide behind something large. Although, the question would be if it would be able to interpret a tiger running at it, based on some input, say, an image. The Gato paper from DeepMind that another poster mentioned would imply that it would, given that image captioning can be done with the exact same neural network as the GPT-3-like language model.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Also of note, this advice demonstrates the confident inaccuracy which is the hallmark of ML models: like all hunting cats, tigers love to chase and they average about the same speed as Usain Bolt. They can also climb trees pretty well.
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > this advice demonstrates the confident inaccuracy which is the hallmark of ML models ... and humans. Just browse Twitter, Facebook, ... or better yet, ask a random person on the street. Further question to GPT-3 (on the first and only try as well): (...) Q: But can't tigers run faster than humans and climb trees? A: Yes, but it would still be worth a try.
idiotsecant 4y ago
>I don’t think having limited I/O means is enough to restrict something from being generally intelligent I agree, and the converse seems to me to be true as well - being unable to abstract that limited I/O in such a way as to expand perception into other parts of reality definitely means it is not generally intelligent. If you give a human a visual interface and a book eventually it (or some descendant of it) will intuit what the book is for (abstraction of audible information transfer in a visual media) and figure out how to get the information out of that book. Until an AI can do the same kind of general learning it's not an AGI. Once we make one that is able to do that I think it's about a wrap for the biological format of the human race. We'll still exist, in the same way that bacteria and lemurs still exist, but the frontier of human development will no longer be in wetware.
- wizeman 4y ago
  > If you give a human a visual interface and a book eventually it (or some descendant of it) will intuit what the book is for (abstraction of audible information transfer in a visual media) and figure out how to get the information out of that book. Until an AI can do the same kind of general learning it's not an AGI. Are you saying AI can't do that already? What is GPT-3's training data if not a giant book, and GPT-3's answers to human questions if not "getting the information out of that book"? The "visual interface" being the bits/bytes/words it ingests during training. Or am I misunderstanding you?
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Yes, I am saying that. Provide GPT-3 with a webcam and drop a book in front of it. Provide it with a microphone and set it in a rainforest. Provide it with a shortwave radio and let it listen to the world. It will fail to draw any meaningful conclusions from any of these things, no matter how long you let it sit. Do the same with humans and eventually you will get science, art, mathematics, radio astronomy, etc. That's the 'general' part of AGI.

sudosysgen 4y ago

GPT's IO is not text, its bytes. It can't handle different byte structures, humans can.

yarg 4y ago
The doesn't seem too relevant - the most important part (in terms of whether or not you're dealing with an intelligence) is how the data is process - not how it's imported.
- GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago
  Indeed, the "data per unit time" is a required parameter for human intelligence. It is useful to grade the 5 senses in bits per second, and I'll make some very wild (and wrong) guesses: Sight 1e6 bits/sec - our primary high-bandwidth connection to the Real World Sound 1e4 bits/sec - again an average, probably less than this Touch, Taste, Smell: 1e2 bit/sec The Temporal Nature of problems (e.g., how quickly is this lion coming at me before he eats me) is essential for a true AGI to understand. In the limit, could an AGI exist with only 20 WPM Morse Code I/O? Or 10 CPS of a Model 33 TTY ? I dunno...
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > The Temporal Nature of problems (e.g., how quickly is this lion coming at me before he eats me) is essential for a true AGI to understand. I agree that figuring out that A happens before B seems important. But I don't see why an AGI would have to operate on the same timescale as we do (well, assuming they wouldn't have to worry about being eaten by lions or interacting with humans). > In the limit, could an AGI exist with only 20 WPM Morse Code I/O? Or 10 CPS of a Model 33 TTY ? I dunno... My guess would be that yes, it could exist in that scenario, but the AGI would only start to operate at a significant intelligence level once enough useful data had been gathered and processed, which is probably a huge amount (so it would take a huge amount of time). But if the AGI had already been trained with huge amounts of data, then operating in a limited environment perhaps would be no problem at all (although the limited interface might greatly limit its rate of further development).
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Yes, that's what I'm pointing at. General intelligence is flexible enough that it allows for great flexibility in the formatting of data. The fact that you can only deal with a very narrow kind of data structure points against general intelligence.

constantcrying 4y ago

Sure. I think that is a valid point. Interestingly Text is not some I/O a human natively supports. The support for that is a complete hack! For an AGI my expectation would be that it can broadly interpret reality. The human vision system is just one peculiar way to gather information about light, yet it allows them to make very sophisticated judgments about reality, e.g. "there is a tiger down there by tye river and it is running at me fast". An AGI should be able to gather information about reality and be able to make similar judgements, given some comparable input. In some sense most AIs are also "cheating", since their I/O is far less fuzzy then what humans have to deal with...

wizeman 4y ago
> The human vision system is just one peculiar way to gather information about light, yet it allows them to make very sophisticated judgments about reality, e.g. "there is a tiger down there by tye river and it is running at me fast". > An AGI should be able to gather information about reality and be able to make similar judgements I just asked GPT-3 this question and here's what it said (on the first and only try): Q: There's a tiger running at you fast. What are you going to do? A: I would try to run away from the tiger as fast as I could. If that wasn't possible, I would try to climb a tree or hide behind something large. Although, the question would be if it would be able to interpret a tiger running at it, based on some input, say, an image. The Gato paper from DeepMind that another poster mentioned would imply that it would, given that image captioning can be done with the exact same neural network as the GPT-3-like language model.
- acdha 4y ago
  Also of note, this advice demonstrates the confident inaccuracy which is the hallmark of ML models: like all hunting cats, tigers love to chase and they average about the same speed as Usain Bolt. They can also climb trees pretty well.
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > this advice demonstrates the confident inaccuracy which is the hallmark of ML models ... and humans. Just browse Twitter, Facebook, ... or better yet, ask a random person on the street. Further question to GPT-3 (on the first and only try as well): (...) Q: But can't tigers run faster than humans and climb trees? A: Yes, but it would still be worth a try.

idiotsecant 4y ago

>I don’t think having limited I/O means is enough to restrict something from being generally intelligent I agree, and the converse seems to me to be true as well - being unable to abstract that limited I/O in such a way as to expand perception into other parts of reality definitely means it is not generally intelligent. If you give a human a visual interface and a book eventually it (or some descendant of it) will intuit what the book is for (abstraction of audible information transfer in a visual media) and figure out how to get the information out of that book. Until an AI can do the same kind of general learning it's not an AGI. Once we make one that is able to do that I think it's about a wrap for the biological format of the human race. We'll still exist, in the same way that bacteria and lemurs still exist, but the frontier of human development will no longer be in wetware.

wizeman 4y ago
> If you give a human a visual interface and a book eventually it (or some descendant of it) will intuit what the book is for (abstraction of audible information transfer in a visual media) and figure out how to get the information out of that book. Until an AI can do the same kind of general learning it's not an AGI. Are you saying AI can't do that already? What is GPT-3's training data if not a giant book, and GPT-3's answers to human questions if not "getting the information out of that book"? The "visual interface" being the bits/bytes/words it ingests during training. Or am I misunderstanding you?
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Yes, I am saying that. Provide GPT-3 with a webcam and drop a book in front of it. Provide it with a microphone and set it in a rainforest. Provide it with a shortwave radio and let it listen to the world. It will fail to draw any meaningful conclusions from any of these things, no matter how long you let it sit. Do the same with humans and eventually you will get science, art, mathematics, radio astronomy, etc. That's the 'general' part of AGI.