5 ms·

I find it deeply unsettling that you'd consider it normal/common to upgrade 4 digit (is that all Apple?) devices every 2 years, or that folks would need so many

I find it deeply unsettling that you'd consider it normal/common to upgrade 4 digit (is that all Apple?) devices every 2 years, or that folks would need so many different form factors in the first place. Just thinking of the literal mountains of ewaste gives me goosebumps.

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
It's pretty much what happens in the regular household with median and around income [1] [2]. Yes, we are currently generating way beyond ridiculous levels of waste, electronic and beyond: we throw away globally 1.4 billion tons of food per year [3] in a world with 822 million people suffering from undernourishment [4]. If we are this bad with something as vital as food, of course we are worse with devices. [1] (2017) Average U.S. household now has 7 screens, report finds https://www.fiercevideo.com/cable/average-u-s-household-now-has-seven-screens-reportlinker-finds https://www.fiercevideo.com/cable/average-u-s-household-now-... [2] (2019) U.S. Households Have an Average of 11 Connected Devices — And 5G Should Push That Even Higher https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/u-s-households-have-an-average-of-11-connected-devices-and-5g-should-push-that-even-higher-1203431225/ https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/u-s-households-have-an... [3] https://www.rts.com/resources/guides/food-waste-america https://www.rts.com/resources/guides/food-waste-america [4] https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty/hunger-and-obesity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty...
- smaudet 4y ago
  Picking screen metrics from 4-5 years ago is a pretty terrible, metric - I have maybe 14 screens but only 2 or 3 of them see active use or are hooked up to anything. My oldest (working) devices are already all closing in on or past a decade. This metric is flawed in many ways...
  - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
    "Adults spend $1,200 a year on consumer electronics and own, on average, 25 CE products per household, according to a study by the CEA." [1] In a family of 4 [2], this can mean somewhere around $3÷4,000 per year, or $6÷8,000 every 2 years. [1] https://www.cnet.com/culture/study-u-s-adults-spend-1200-a-year-on-electronics https://www.cnet.com/culture/study-u-s-adults-spend-1200-a-y... [2] The average US family size is 2.51 [3] while average worldwide is 4.9 [4] [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/31/with-billions-confined-to-their-homes-worldwide-which-living-arrangements-are-most-common/ft_2020-03-31_livingarrangements_01 https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/31/with-billio...
    - smaudet 4y ago
      "electronic gizmos" is not screens... I can think of quite a few electronics I spent money this year which did not include any screen device. Again, these stats are misleading, maybe dishonest. My "device" budget we'll call it has been less than 1000$ over the past 5 years, and that is with spending a fair amount on non-screen decives, which are electronic in nature but not investments in dedicated computing like you would have us beleive.
      - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
        "Consumer electronics" consist of "telephones, televisions, and calculators, then audio and video recorders and players, game consoles, mobile phones, personal computers and MP3 players", "GPS, automotive electronics (car stereos), video game consoles, electronic musical instruments (e.g., synthesizer keyboards), karaoke machines, digital cameras, and video players", "smart light fixtures and appliances, digital cameras, camcorders, cell phones, and smartphones", "virtual reality head-mounted display goggles, smart home devices that connect home devices to the Internet, streaming devices, and wearable technology." [1] Most of them have screens. As a general heuristic, one single person's decision tree is rather irrelevant in the long open game of average spending behaviours. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_electronics
- michaelt 4y ago
  The US market for laptops is 21 billion [1], for desktops 11 billion [2], and tablets 11bn [3]. With 123 million households in the US, the mean spending on laptops, desktops and tablets together is $350/year per household. Smartphone sales were $74 billion [4] or $600/household/year. That's a total of $950/year, per household. The average American household isn't spending $11,000+ every 2 years. [1] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/computing/laptops/united-states#revenue https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/co... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/722371/united-states-desktop-pc-revenues/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/722371/united-states-des... [3] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/computing/tablets/united-states#revenue https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/co... [4] https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartphones-in-the-us-since-2005/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartpho...
  - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
    The lower limit of the example budget above was $8,000 and considering a family of 4 over 2 to 4 years. "Apple generated $365 billion revenue in 2021, 52% came from iPhone sales" [1] Taking Apple as example, those billions have to come from someone. The greater point was that instead of having the billions try to make every single device the most powerful CPU/GPU of the current Moore's Law peak, because no one wants a slow device, you might just as well have a bare glass able to render pixels computed on a remote powerful machine, but that machine must be owned by the user. And you don't stream an app, a browser, you stream an entire OS, on the spot, on request. [1] https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics
smaudet 4y ago
I don't consider it normal at all. Seems like the words of an out-of-touch upper cruster. Most people make a 1k$ purchase last decades. Enthusiasts may be dropping 5-10k$ but not your average joe.
- robocat 4y ago
  WTF? Mostly you can't even use consumer technology from "decades" ago - it's incompatible. In 2005 the average size of a TV was 30 inches. Two decades ago a TV had no HDMI, and it only received analog NTSC or PAL. A phone was 2G - 3G was the thing about to be but mostly not there yet. One decade ago the iPhone 5 was released. An Apple iBook cost $1200 with 128MB of ram and a PPC processor: https://apple-history.com/ibook_mid_2002 https://apple-history.com/ibook_mid_2002 Maybe a stereo is usable - although for midrange equipment the capacitors have probably dried out and you certainly won't be getting digital FM. You would need to be very poor if you can't get working hand-me-downs from a decade ago.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    My old gaming computer from 2013 still plays 2022 games on medium-high settings just fine. You can make computers run for a long time if you put in the effort.
    - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
      Precisely, the users, by definition, care only about the user interface. The matmul machine can be hidden in any box, just that so far it has been tied in same box with the screen. Hence why the greater point is that thin clients are relevant if the user owns the matmul box.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bombcar 4y ago
Most people who upgrade on a cycle also sell on a cycle - if you buy the new hotness today, and sell it in two years, it'll still be relatively hot. The old one isn't thrown away, it's just sold to someone else. People do it with cars (even if they're not leasing, which is explicitly doing it).
PebblesRox 4y ago
And even among households that do have so many devices, aren't the kids' devices typically "replaced" with hand-me-downs from the grownups rather than with totally brand-new devices?
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  It was just a bit of napkin mathematics seasoned with some quickly searched statistics of averages. The greater point is that thin clients become truly relevant when the user also owns the rendering machine, think of self-cloud.

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago

It's pretty much what happens in the regular household with median and around income [1] [2]. Yes, we are currently generating way beyond ridiculous levels of waste, electronic and beyond: we throw away globally 1.4 billion tons of food per year [3] in a world with 822 million people suffering from undernourishment [4]. If we are this bad with something as vital as food, of course we are worse with devices. [1] (2017) Average U.S. household now has 7 screens, report finds https://www.fiercevideo.com/cable/average-u-s-household-now-has-seven-screens-reportlinker-finds https://www.fiercevideo.com/cable/average-u-s-household-now-... [2] (2019) U.S. Households Have an Average of 11 Connected Devices — And 5G Should Push That Even Higher https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/u-s-households-have-an-average-of-11-connected-devices-and-5g-should-push-that-even-higher-1203431225/ https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/u-s-households-have-an... [3] https://www.rts.com/resources/guides/food-waste-america https://www.rts.com/resources/guides/food-waste-america [4] https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty/hunger-and-obesity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty...

smaudet 4y ago
Picking screen metrics from 4-5 years ago is a pretty terrible, metric - I have maybe 14 screens but only 2 or 3 of them see active use or are hooked up to anything. My oldest (working) devices are already all closing in on or past a decade. This metric is flawed in many ways...
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  "Adults spend $1,200 a year on consumer electronics and own, on average, 25 CE products per household, according to a study by the CEA." [1] In a family of 4 [2], this can mean somewhere around $3÷4,000 per year, or $6÷8,000 every 2 years. [1] https://www.cnet.com/culture/study-u-s-adults-spend-1200-a-year-on-electronics https://www.cnet.com/culture/study-u-s-adults-spend-1200-a-y... [2] The average US family size is 2.51 [3] while average worldwide is 4.9 [4] [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/31/with-billions-confined-to-their-homes-worldwide-which-living-arrangements-are-most-common/ft_2020-03-31_livingarrangements_01 https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/31/with-billio...
  - smaudet 4y ago
    "electronic gizmos" is not screens... I can think of quite a few electronics I spent money this year which did not include any screen device. Again, these stats are misleading, maybe dishonest. My "device" budget we'll call it has been less than 1000$ over the past 5 years, and that is with spending a fair amount on non-screen decives, which are electronic in nature but not investments in dedicated computing like you would have us beleive.
    - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
      "Consumer electronics" consist of "telephones, televisions, and calculators, then audio and video recorders and players, game consoles, mobile phones, personal computers and MP3 players", "GPS, automotive electronics (car stereos), video game consoles, electronic musical instruments (e.g., synthesizer keyboards), karaoke machines, digital cameras, and video players", "smart light fixtures and appliances, digital cameras, camcorders, cell phones, and smartphones", "virtual reality head-mounted display goggles, smart home devices that connect home devices to the Internet, streaming devices, and wearable technology." [1] Most of them have screens. As a general heuristic, one single person's decision tree is rather irrelevant in the long open game of average spending behaviours. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_electronics
michaelt 4y ago
The US market for laptops is 21 billion [1], for desktops 11 billion [2], and tablets 11bn [3]. With 123 million households in the US, the mean spending on laptops, desktops and tablets together is $350/year per household. Smartphone sales were $74 billion [4] or $600/household/year. That's a total of $950/year, per household. The average American household isn't spending $11,000+ every 2 years. [1] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/computing/laptops/united-states#revenue https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/co... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/722371/united-states-desktop-pc-revenues/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/722371/united-states-des... [3] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/computing/tablets/united-states#revenue https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/co... [4] https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartphones-in-the-us-since-2005/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191985/sales-of-smartpho...
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  The lower limit of the example budget above was $8,000 and considering a family of 4 over 2 to 4 years. "Apple generated $365 billion revenue in 2021, 52% came from iPhone sales" [1] Taking Apple as example, those billions have to come from someone. The greater point was that instead of having the billions try to make every single device the most powerful CPU/GPU of the current Moore's Law peak, because no one wants a slow device, you might just as well have a bare glass able to render pixels computed on a remote powerful machine, but that machine must be owned by the user. And you don't stream an app, a browser, you stream an entire OS, on the spot, on request. [1] https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics

smaudet 4y ago

I don't consider it normal at all. Seems like the words of an out-of-touch upper cruster. Most people make a 1k$ purchase last decades. Enthusiasts may be dropping 5-10k$ but not your average joe.

robocat 4y ago
WTF? Mostly you can't even use consumer technology from "decades" ago - it's incompatible. In 2005 the average size of a TV was 30 inches. Two decades ago a TV had no HDMI, and it only received analog NTSC or PAL. A phone was 2G - 3G was the thing about to be but mostly not there yet. One decade ago the iPhone 5 was released. An Apple iBook cost $1200 with 128MB of ram and a PPC processor: https://apple-history.com/ibook_mid_2002 https://apple-history.com/ibook_mid_2002 Maybe a stereo is usable - although for midrange equipment the capacitors have probably dried out and you certainly won't be getting digital FM. You would need to be very poor if you can't get working hand-me-downs from a decade ago.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  My old gaming computer from 2013 still plays 2022 games on medium-high settings just fine. You can make computers run for a long time if you put in the effort.
  - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
    Precisely, the users, by definition, care only about the user interface. The matmul machine can be hidden in any box, just that so far it has been tied in same box with the screen. Hence why the greater point is that thin clients are relevant if the user owns the matmul box.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bombcar 4y ago

Most people who upgrade on a cycle also sell on a cycle - if you buy the new hotness today, and sell it in two years, it'll still be relatively hot. The old one isn't thrown away, it's just sold to someone else. People do it with cars (even if they're not leasing, which is explicitly doing it).

PebblesRox 4y ago

And even among households that do have so many devices, aren't the kids' devices typically "replaced" with hand-me-downs from the grownups rather than with totally brand-new devices?

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
It was just a bit of napkin mathematics seasoned with some quickly searched statistics of averages. The greater point is that thin clients become truly relevant when the user also owns the rendering machine, think of self-cloud.