5 ms·

I want to offer a counter-point to some of the opinions held about testosterone in this thread. For background: I started taking lifting weights when I was 14,

I want to offer a counter-point to some of the opinions held about testosterone in this thread. For background: I started taking lifting weights when I was 14, to train for competitive powerlifting. By the time I was 17, I was on steroids. I'm in my late 20's now, and I've got to be on TRT for life, due to how compromised my endogenous production of testosterone is (my Leydig's cells no longer function. They don't produce FSH/LSH, which in turn means I naturally produce the Test of an 80-year-old man). I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL which is around twice what the average person has. And during my steroid use, I have bloodwork where my testosterone was over 10,000ng/dL and e2 (estradiol) were over 200 pg/mL. You'd never know from talking to me, I'm super introverted and socially anxious. Even when I had the testosterone of quite literally 10 men, I was an introverted nerd who liked to sit quietly in my house and would prefer to lift by myself. I don't have much else to offer the thread, but I want to throw out of the notion of "testosterone/estrogen makes you some crazed he-man" out as a wives tale. I think people like to use it as an excuse/scapegoat for their behavior. Actually, maybe one interesting anecdote: My sex drive was no higher on copious amounts of anabolic steroids than it was before, often times it was worse

gavinray 4y ago
As proof, here is a blood test with 7,500 testosterone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIelcb_3q/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIel... And then years later, with 150 (slightly above female): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjXdYZnQ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjX...
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  Did you ever have free testosterone or SHBG levels checked? It's possible to have high total T but low levels of free T, which is the bioavailable stuff.
  - gavinray 4y ago
    Ah yes, I think I did have one bloodwork with SHBG done. I was on 250mg Test Enanthate a week then (no AI or other hormones, I think I may have been on GHRP/GHRP peptides like Ipamorelin + CJC 1295 but that's irrelevant): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5LDH74/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5... Here's the results for the lazy. The first number is the value, the second set of numbers are the reference ranges: Testosterone, Serum 1465 HIGH 348-1197 LH <0.2 LOW 1.7-8.6 FSH <0.2 LOW 1.5-12.4 Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 10.6 LOW 16.5-55.9
cjbgkagh 4y ago
Different people react to the same meds in vastly different ways. You’ll need more than N=1 to throw out notions of general effects of large amounts of steroids.
- gavinray 4y ago
  This is true, but if testosterone is what makes humans aggressive, wouldn't I have been ... aggressive, with 10 peoples worth in me, were that the case? My point was to illustrate how reductionist that kind of thinking is. It's also possible I have weird neurochemistry and am an outlier, so I didn't respond typically.
  - cjbgkagh 4y ago
    The response to Test isn’t linear. Many of the effects are threshold and proportion based. I think you would have got a stronger mental reaction if you also took aromatase inhibitors to keep the E2 down. But yeah as you mention you’re likely an outlier. I don’t think anyone is claiming steroids makes everyone aggravated. Plus there are different types of steroids with Tren being more strongly linked to aggression.
    - gavinray 4y ago
      I took, at various points, Tren, Deca, Mast, Anavar, Primobolan, Equipoise, Trestolone, Superdrol, Dianabol, Anadrol, Winstrol, Epistane, Halotestin, Methyltrienolone, Methylstenbolone, and an alphabet soup of various other prohormones, peptides, as well as insulin and HGH. I treated my body like a walking science lab during my teen years. I took AI (if you would have looked at my bloodwork, you would have seen that at 7,500 ng/dL Test my E2 was crushed below the normal reference range, I actually had LOW estradiol) but it caused more issues than it was worth. People on the internet largely don't know what they're talking about when it comes to anabolic steroids, I discovered that the hard way.
      - cjbgkagh 4y ago
        That’s quite an outlier. I didn’t read your tests but I did wonder why you let E2 get that high in your msg. My working theory is the mechanism is similar to alcohol with a lowering of inhibition. The aggregation has to be in you from the start.
rcarr 4y ago
Maybe a daft question but despite all this, would you recommend it? I used to be into weightlifting/CrossFit and was quite naturally strong but always a bit short of where I wanted to be, probably through lack of stability in my life meaning my routines were constantly disrupted. I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years. I’m now in early thirties, and things are slightly more stable but I’m also in the worst shape of my life. I was planning on getting back into reasonable shape over the next 3 to 6 months and then doing a SARM cycle or two to see if I could get to where I wanted to be. My plan was to then stop and attempt to maintain the gains I’d accumulated. From what I’ve read SARMs seem a safer way to go. I’d be doing it sensibly, aiming to take the smallest dose that worked and getting monthly blood tests if I can afford it to minimise the health risks. As I’m now approaching midlife and my life hasn’t really turned out the way I’d planned (no wife, no kids, no skyrocketing career) I feel like I don’t really have all that much to lose. Wouldn’t mind getting the opinion of someone whose done this kind of thing though to see if they think it’s worth it even if you end up on TRT. I kind of feel like everyone ends up on TRT naturally anyway (or should be taking it if they’re over 45) so there’s not a hell of a lot of difference.
- gavinray 4y ago
  I would recommend medically prescribed TRT absolutely, it's been life-changing in terms of mood/depression and energy. Especially if you're getting older, at some point you're going to naturally wind up at levels so low you ought to have the option to have it anyways. You'll have to inject yourself once a week, for the rest of your life. It sucks but the benefits are worth it (IMO). I look at it sort of like a multivitamin. One word of caution about SARMs like LGD-4033 -- despite not being hormonal, they can still cause a degree of suppression. I'd get bloodwork done before & after to be sure, like you mention. As an aside: > I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years. Yeah, steroids are much more common than folks think, and nearly everyone lies about using them (why would you admit to use, what do you have to gain?). I'm hoping that eventually we de-stigmatize them so that this sort of thing stops happening. I too had these unrealistic goals based on a lie that I thought I could achieve naturally. It turns out my idol was juiced to the gills.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
You’re exactly right that the mental effects of testosterone have been greatly exaggerated. People with genuine hypogonadism who receive TRT into normal levels will see some improvement, but it’s extremely common on TRT forums to see people who started TRT with the assumption that it would fix all of their various mental health quirks but then become disappointed when it doesn’t live up to the hype. > I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL which is around twice what the average person has. I wouldn’t characterize this as “lucky”. You’re on the wrong dose. Excess testosterone can cause its own set of mental health issues, particularly if the downstream hormones aren’t kept in check. The sustainable solution is to go back to a normal TRT range and keep your dose there.
iwillbenice 4y ago
rysertio 4y ago
Exact opposite thing happened with me while being on estrogens. Right after couple of months I started my HRT I started to become extroverted. I was a very introverted kid that hated interacting with other people. After starting on estrogens I was kinda worried that I'd become more introverted over time. But nope. The exact opposite happened. I suddenly started liking the outside world more than before. I'd go to shopping with my friends, go to events, cons. stuff that I wouldn't even imagine doing before. I guess everyone responds to hormones differently.
Volrath89 4y ago
So, is TRT a low dose steroid? or what's the difference? It seems that both increase your testosterone levels, and it seems that is what help bodybuilders with their muscle mass
jjtheblunt 4y ago
> I think people like to use it as an excuse/scapegoat for their behavior. I think that steroids -> aggressiveness comes from documentaries, like those of Lyle Alzedo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado#Steroid_use_and_death The indented paragraph from Alzedo is an early steroids user describing the effects it had on him.
VoodooJuJu 4y ago
>I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL Your "response" to TRT puts you at 1,100 ng/dL because you choose to inject enough testosterone to get it that high. TRT aims to restore men with under 300 ng/dL to a "normal" range of 500-600 ng/dL, and the dosage is adjusted accordingly to hit that target. If you're not adjusting the dosage and you're hitting 1,100ng/dL, it's not luck, it's because you want it at that level.

gavinray 4y ago

As proof, here is a blood test with 7,500 testosterone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIelcb_3q/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIel... And then years later, with 150 (slightly above female): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjXdYZnQ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjX...

tomjakubowski 4y ago
Did you ever have free testosterone or SHBG levels checked? It's possible to have high total T but low levels of free T, which is the bioavailable stuff.
- gavinray 4y ago
  Ah yes, I think I did have one bloodwork with SHBG done. I was on 250mg Test Enanthate a week then (no AI or other hormones, I think I may have been on GHRP/GHRP peptides like Ipamorelin + CJC 1295 but that's irrelevant): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5LDH74/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5... Here's the results for the lazy. The first number is the value, the second set of numbers are the reference ranges: Testosterone, Serum 1465 HIGH 348-1197 LH <0.2 LOW 1.7-8.6 FSH <0.2 LOW 1.5-12.4 Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 10.6 LOW 16.5-55.9

cjbgkagh 4y ago

Different people react to the same meds in vastly different ways. You’ll need more than N=1 to throw out notions of general effects of large amounts of steroids.

gavinray 4y ago
This is true, but if testosterone is what makes humans aggressive, wouldn't I have been ... aggressive, with 10 peoples worth in me, were that the case? My point was to illustrate how reductionist that kind of thinking is. It's also possible I have weird neurochemistry and am an outlier, so I didn't respond typically.
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  The response to Test isn’t linear. Many of the effects are threshold and proportion based. I think you would have got a stronger mental reaction if you also took aromatase inhibitors to keep the E2 down. But yeah as you mention you’re likely an outlier. I don’t think anyone is claiming steroids makes everyone aggravated. Plus there are different types of steroids with Tren being more strongly linked to aggression.
  - gavinray 4y ago
    I took, at various points, Tren, Deca, Mast, Anavar, Primobolan, Equipoise, Trestolone, Superdrol, Dianabol, Anadrol, Winstrol, Epistane, Halotestin, Methyltrienolone, Methylstenbolone, and an alphabet soup of various other prohormones, peptides, as well as insulin and HGH. I treated my body like a walking science lab during my teen years. I took AI (if you would have looked at my bloodwork, you would have seen that at 7,500 ng/dL Test my E2 was crushed below the normal reference range, I actually had LOW estradiol) but it caused more issues than it was worth. People on the internet largely don't know what they're talking about when it comes to anabolic steroids, I discovered that the hard way.
    - cjbgkagh 4y ago
      That’s quite an outlier. I didn’t read your tests but I did wonder why you let E2 get that high in your msg. My working theory is the mechanism is similar to alcohol with a lowering of inhibition. The aggregation has to be in you from the start.

rcarr 4y ago

Maybe a daft question but despite all this, would you recommend it? I used to be into weightlifting/CrossFit and was quite naturally strong but always a bit short of where I wanted to be, probably through lack of stability in my life meaning my routines were constantly disrupted. I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years. I’m now in early thirties, and things are slightly more stable but I’m also in the worst shape of my life. I was planning on getting back into reasonable shape over the next 3 to 6 months and then doing a SARM cycle or two to see if I could get to where I wanted to be. My plan was to then stop and attempt to maintain the gains I’d accumulated. From what I’ve read SARMs seem a safer way to go. I’d be doing it sensibly, aiming to take the smallest dose that worked and getting monthly blood tests if I can afford it to minimise the health risks. As I’m now approaching midlife and my life hasn’t really turned out the way I’d planned (no wife, no kids, no skyrocketing career) I feel like I don’t really have all that much to lose. Wouldn’t mind getting the opinion of someone whose done this kind of thing though to see if they think it’s worth it even if you end up on TRT. I kind of feel like everyone ends up on TRT naturally anyway (or should be taking it if they’re over 45) so there’s not a hell of a lot of difference.

gavinray 4y ago
I would recommend medically prescribed TRT absolutely, it's been life-changing in terms of mood/depression and energy. Especially if you're getting older, at some point you're going to naturally wind up at levels so low you ought to have the option to have it anyways. You'll have to inject yourself once a week, for the rest of your life. It sucks but the benefits are worth it (IMO). I look at it sort of like a multivitamin. One word of caution about SARMs like LGD-4033 -- despite not being hormonal, they can still cause a degree of suppression. I'd get bloodwork done before & after to be sure, like you mention. As an aside: > I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years. Yeah, steroids are much more common than folks think, and nearly everyone lies about using them (why would you admit to use, what do you have to gain?). I'm hoping that eventually we de-stigmatize them so that this sort of thing stops happening. I too had these unrealistic goals based on a lie that I thought I could achieve naturally. It turns out my idol was juiced to the gills.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

You’re exactly right that the mental effects of testosterone have been greatly exaggerated. People with genuine hypogonadism who receive TRT into normal levels will see some improvement, but it’s extremely common on TRT forums to see people who started TRT with the assumption that it would fix all of their various mental health quirks but then become disappointed when it doesn’t live up to the hype. > I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL which is around twice what the average person has. I wouldn’t characterize this as “lucky”. You’re on the wrong dose. Excess testosterone can cause its own set of mental health issues, particularly if the downstream hormones aren’t kept in check. The sustainable solution is to go back to a normal TRT range and keep your dose there.

iwillbenice 4y ago

rysertio 4y ago

Exact opposite thing happened with me while being on estrogens. Right after couple of months I started my HRT I started to become extroverted. I was a very introverted kid that hated interacting with other people. After starting on estrogens I was kinda worried that I'd become more introverted over time. But nope. The exact opposite happened. I suddenly started liking the outside world more than before. I'd go to shopping with my friends, go to events, cons. stuff that I wouldn't even imagine doing before. I guess everyone responds to hormones differently.

Volrath89 4y ago

So, is TRT a low dose steroid? or what's the difference? It seems that both increase your testosterone levels, and it seems that is what help bodybuilders with their muscle mass

jjtheblunt 4y ago

> I think people like to use it as an excuse/scapegoat for their behavior. I think that steroids -> aggressiveness comes from documentaries, like those of Lyle Alzedo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado#Steroid_use_and_death The indented paragraph from Alzedo is an early steroids user describing the effects it had on him.

VoodooJuJu 4y ago

>I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL Your "response" to TRT puts you at 1,100 ng/dL because you choose to inject enough testosterone to get it that high. TRT aims to restore men with under 300 ng/dL to a "normal" range of 500-600 ng/dL, and the dosage is adjusted accordingly to hit that target. If you're not adjusting the dosage and you're hitting 1,100ng/dL, it's not luck, it's because you want it at that level.