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Ponzi schemes are not obvious, until they’re totally obvious. That’s why they keep happening. A lot of people will explain to others that it’s a Ponzi scheme,

Ponzi schemes are not obvious, until they’re totally obvious. That’s why they keep happening. A lot of people will explain to others that it’s a Ponzi scheme, but those people are making so much money that hey don’t want to hear it. Crypto is a Ponzi scheme, and it always was. I’m not just talking about these companies, being Ponzi schemes, I’m talking about the whole ecosystem being a Ponzi scheme. You can either listen to those of us telling you cook those a Ponzi scheme or you can focus on your greed. Your choice.

bernawil 4y ago
At this point everybody is pretty competent at identifying pyramid schemes. Now people enter them willingly hoping to cash out on time, no different than gambling. The scam now is making people believe they are higher in the pyramid than they really are.
lizknope 4y ago
You don't have to listen to me or another expert saying that FTX was a ponzi scheme. Literally just listen to SBF himself. He described his business as a ponzi scheme. If that isn't obvious then I don't know what is. This is Coffeezilla's summary of SBF on the Odd Lots podcast with financial analyst Matt Levine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sucxhGOv9ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sucxhGOv9ww
- gruez 4y ago
  > Literally just listen to SBF himself. He described his business as a ponzi scheme 1. you should actually listen to the podcast, or at least skim the transcript[1], rather than trusting some second hand account by some youtuber. In the podcast, he's describing an abstract token that offers no utility, not FTT and certainly not the exchange itself. 2. At least from skimming the whitepaper for FTT, there's at least a plausible business model (eg. through exchange fees). That's not to say it's not a ponzi scheme, because many ponzi schemes claim they have a plausible business model, but that's different than literally describing yourself as a ponzi scheme. That would require you to put out a whitepaper that's like "we fully expect this token/company to make zero money and all profits to earlier investors come from later investors". [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/odd-lots-full-transcript-sam-bankman-fried-and-matt-levine-on-crypto https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/odd-lots-...
acdha 4y ago
I think your second paragraph is correct but contradicts the first. It’s not that these aren’t obvious so much as some people really wanting to find ways to ignore that so they can get rich without feeling like a scammer.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  What I meant by " Ponzi schemes are not obvious, until they’re totally obvious. That’s why they keep happening." Is that they are totally obvious once they fall apart. No contradiction.
  - w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago
    Hey. I offer a 10% return on stock market, every years, in bull as well as bear markets. Does it sound legit ?
  - acdha 4y ago
    I was thinking something like undeniable or incontrovertible might be more apt to convey the period between something being obvious to an objective observer and when even people who are predisposed to want it to work acknowledge that it doesn’t. The magical thinking around blockchains is a good example where the flaws have been exhaustively discussed but there are enough people who don’t like the traditional banks (understandable) and are hoping that it can work if enough people try really hard.
chemmail 4y ago
A "Ponzi Scheme" is just about timing and perspective. A government may seem like a stable entity until it inevitably crumbles and looks like a Ponzi scheme. You just have to exit or shut it down before something bad happens to prevent anything into becoming a Ponzi scheme.

bernawil 4y ago

At this point everybody is pretty competent at identifying pyramid schemes. Now people enter them willingly hoping to cash out on time, no different than gambling. The scam now is making people believe they are higher in the pyramid than they really are.

lizknope 4y ago

You don't have to listen to me or another expert saying that FTX was a ponzi scheme. Literally just listen to SBF himself. He described his business as a ponzi scheme. If that isn't obvious then I don't know what is. This is Coffeezilla's summary of SBF on the Odd Lots podcast with financial analyst Matt Levine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sucxhGOv9ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sucxhGOv9ww

gruez 4y ago
> Literally just listen to SBF himself. He described his business as a ponzi scheme 1. you should actually listen to the podcast, or at least skim the transcript[1], rather than trusting some second hand account by some youtuber. In the podcast, he's describing an abstract token that offers no utility, not FTT and certainly not the exchange itself. 2. At least from skimming the whitepaper for FTT, there's at least a plausible business model (eg. through exchange fees). That's not to say it's not a ponzi scheme, because many ponzi schemes claim they have a plausible business model, but that's different than literally describing yourself as a ponzi scheme. That would require you to put out a whitepaper that's like "we fully expect this token/company to make zero money and all profits to earlier investors come from later investors". [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/odd-lots-full-transcript-sam-bankman-fried-and-matt-levine-on-crypto https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/odd-lots-...

acdha 4y ago

I think your second paragraph is correct but contradicts the first. It’s not that these aren’t obvious so much as some people really wanting to find ways to ignore that so they can get rich without feeling like a scammer.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
What I meant by " Ponzi schemes are not obvious, until they’re totally obvious. That’s why they keep happening." Is that they are totally obvious once they fall apart. No contradiction.
- w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago
  Hey. I offer a 10% return on stock market, every years, in bull as well as bear markets. Does it sound legit ?
- acdha 4y ago
  I was thinking something like undeniable or incontrovertible might be more apt to convey the period between something being obvious to an objective observer and when even people who are predisposed to want it to work acknowledge that it doesn’t. The magical thinking around blockchains is a good example where the flaws have been exhaustively discussed but there are enough people who don’t like the traditional banks (understandable) and are hoping that it can work if enough people try really hard.

chemmail 4y ago

A "Ponzi Scheme" is just about timing and perspective. A government may seem like a stable entity until it inevitably crumbles and looks like a Ponzi scheme. You just have to exit or shut it down before something bad happens to prevent anything into becoming a Ponzi scheme.