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One reason corruption might increase with sortition is that it would be much cheaper to successfully bribe a representative. Most politicians are rich so it’s v

One reason corruption might increase with sortition is that it would be much cheaper to successfully bribe a representative. Most politicians are rich so it’s very expensive to make a bribe worthwhile to them. But if people with less money are in power, they might be swayed by smaller bribes. Also, they don’t have as much to lose if they’re caught accepting a bribe. If a career politician is caught accepting a bribe, their career as a politician is over. But if a mechanic is caught accepting a bribe during their 2 year stint as a representative, they would suffer minimal reputational damage and could just go back to being a mechanic. You also mentioned that you could prevent this with harsh penalties and long term audits, but I think it would be pretty easy to circumvent an audit. Like, if I wanted to bribe someone elected by sortition, I would just offer them free stuff instead of money so it’s harder to trace. Like free hotel stays or prepaid gift cards. I could imagine apolitical people treating a sortition win like winning the lottery and expecting to get money out of it. And just auctioning their vote off to the highest bidder. With all that said though, there would be a lot of advantages to sortition so the risk of corruption and bribery might still be worth it and would still probably be better than our current system.

lapcat 4y ago
> Most politicians are rich so it’s very expensive to make a bribe worthwhile to them. The question is, bribe them to do what? Usually, you're bribing them to follow the preferences of the wealthy. Which already happens if the politician is wealthy! They're already voting for self-serving legislation. So in a sense, bribing the wealthy is more redundant than expensive. However, you might be surprised how little you have to contribute to a politician's reelection campaign to get the politician to do stuff for you. > If a career politician is caught accepting a bribe, their career as a politician is over. They go to jail. This has happened a number of times. Bribery is illegal. > I would just offer them free stuff instead of money so it’s harder to trace. Like free hotel stays or prepaid gift cards. This happens with politicians too. But they still get caught. Anyway, it's no harder or easier than doing the same thing with elected politicians.
permo-w 4y ago
>they would suffer minimal reputational damage and could just go back to being a mechanic presumably they would also go to prison
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Or we could cut their hands off, sentence them to house arrest for life, brand them with a scarlet letter, banish them to an island, etc. there are options other than just shrugging and accepting it as inevitable.
- origin_path 4y ago
  No they wouldn't, because that's not how bribes work anymore. Basically all bribes of politicians or civil servants are based on promises of jobs or consulting work after leaving the public sector. Look at how frequently politicians show up being paid inexplicably huge speaking fees at major banks despite having nothing to say, or how frequently regulators end up getting well paid jobs at the companies they were supervising immediately after leaving. The issue is you can't prove these are bribes. There's no paper trail, no mysterious payments. Someone's expertise or worth to another is entirely arbitrary, you can't say someone's speaking fee is 'too large' or their experience isn't worth that much money, especially if they've had an unusually interesting position beforehand.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    This is actually why bribes to randomly selected citizens would be easier to catch. After a maximum 1 year term, a randomly selected citizen would be expected to go back to their previous line of work. Whereas an elected professional politician who has spent years in "public service" might naturally be expected to take a politically relevant job afterward. If a randomly selected citizen magically starts getting huge bank speaking fees afterwards, that's obviously a bribe.
    - permo-w 4y ago
      this sounds good, but is in practice absolutely impossible to enforce
ajjenkins 4y ago
These are all good points. Thanks for replying.

lapcat 4y ago

> Most politicians are rich so it’s very expensive to make a bribe worthwhile to them. The question is, bribe them to do what? Usually, you're bribing them to follow the preferences of the wealthy. Which already happens if the politician is wealthy! They're already voting for self-serving legislation. So in a sense, bribing the wealthy is more redundant than expensive. However, you might be surprised how little you have to contribute to a politician's reelection campaign to get the politician to do stuff for you. > If a career politician is caught accepting a bribe, their career as a politician is over. They go to jail. This has happened a number of times. Bribery is illegal. > I would just offer them free stuff instead of money so it’s harder to trace. Like free hotel stays or prepaid gift cards. This happens with politicians too. But they still get caught. Anyway, it's no harder or easier than doing the same thing with elected politicians.

permo-w 4y ago

>they would suffer minimal reputational damage and could just go back to being a mechanic presumably they would also go to prison

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Or we could cut their hands off, sentence them to house arrest for life, brand them with a scarlet letter, banish them to an island, etc. there are options other than just shrugging and accepting it as inevitable.
origin_path 4y ago
No they wouldn't, because that's not how bribes work anymore. Basically all bribes of politicians or civil servants are based on promises of jobs or consulting work after leaving the public sector. Look at how frequently politicians show up being paid inexplicably huge speaking fees at major banks despite having nothing to say, or how frequently regulators end up getting well paid jobs at the companies they were supervising immediately after leaving. The issue is you can't prove these are bribes. There's no paper trail, no mysterious payments. Someone's expertise or worth to another is entirely arbitrary, you can't say someone's speaking fee is 'too large' or their experience isn't worth that much money, especially if they've had an unusually interesting position beforehand.
- lapcat 4y ago
  This is actually why bribes to randomly selected citizens would be easier to catch. After a maximum 1 year term, a randomly selected citizen would be expected to go back to their previous line of work. Whereas an elected professional politician who has spent years in "public service" might naturally be expected to take a politically relevant job afterward. If a randomly selected citizen magically starts getting huge bank speaking fees afterwards, that's obviously a bribe.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    this sounds good, but is in practice absolutely impossible to enforce

ajjenkins 4y ago

These are all good points. Thanks for replying.