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Replaced spotify links should be the least of your worries. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-de

Replaced spotify links should be the least of your worries. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-details-on-siri-recordings https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-con... Digital assistants do not exist to serve you or your interests. You should assume that your every interaction with one will be exploited in some way for someone else's benefit, or leaked and/or sold to some third party without your knowledge, or both. I'm not saying apple isn't wrong for what they're doing to sneakily drive more traffic to their own services for profit, but this is exactly the sort of thing you should expect.

lnsru 4y ago
That’s why I am slowly training myself to leave the cellphone in the shelf at the house’s exit. Ironically loosing the “mobile” feature of the mobile phone. I see other people sticking paper pieces on both cameras already. I also see people having Alexa in every room:-/ Interesting new age and I feel being Luddite in it.
- batch12 4y ago
  I was thinking about the idea of being considered a luddite for opting out of 'smart things' yesterday. I don't think that deciding not to use intrusive surveillance in my home should qualify. I still extensively use technology. I don't consider the mining of my data as a trade for voice controlled searching to be technological progress. Give me the same solution-- one I can trust-- one that I can fully control and I will use it. Let me understand and alter the technology as I see fit. To me, that's the opposite of a luddite. I am not going to let the marketing departments of these advertising agencies manipulate me into thinking otherwise.
  - mcculley 4y ago
    Luddite is not the best term. The way I have been putting it: We are all Amish now, forced to evaluate each new technology we use lest it use us.
- nolok 4y ago
  Android users here so I genuinely don't know: can't the voice trigger for Siri be entirely disabled ? I know I never allow my phone to listen for trigger (or even the entirely worse "keep listening when locked for the trigger", aka always record what I say even if I'm not using my phone). Now whether it does respect my choice or still record but disable triggering is another matter, but that's sadly the world we got into with our purchasing choices of phones, and why I support the EU going after such privacy issues.
  - mgrandl 4y ago
    Yes it can be disabled completely.
  - jrmg 4y ago
    You’re being hyperbolic. It’s not ‘aka always record what I say even if I'm not using my phone’. It’s processing the audio at all times to detect the trigger words.
survirtual 4y ago
If you won’t say it, I will: Apple is wrong for what they’re doing. These are tools that should be serving their users, not their creators.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
  What is the basis of right/wrong in this value judgment and why is this basis correct and the others not?
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    It is wrong that they do not do, what the user who payed for it, asked it to do. A task it can do, but choose to do a different task, that is better in the intereet of the corporation. It is a quite harmles example, but it is zelling of the general state of things and where we are heading. If I buy a device I assume I own it. Thats how it should be. Not that I rent it and the rules to rent change all the time.
    - farias0 4y ago
      Is it not reasonable to expect that the keyword "share" functions the same as the share button? I don't know the standards you have for the things you buy, but I find unacceptable that a thing I paid (handsomely) for twists my orders to share adverting to my contacts under my name, and part of the reason things are so bad is because at every valid criticism there are people defending these stuff as normal
  - rendall 4y ago
    One could ask this same question of any terrible, unethical thing. The reasonable expectation is that a digital assistant will work for its user and not the corporation that sold it. The corporation is trading on this expectation to exploit its users.
    - hnews_account_1 4y ago
      This is not a reasonable expectation for a digital assistant. At all. It is reasonable for a hacker to expect it. But the majority of the public doesn’t care that Apple tries to push Apple Music. If this was sold as a separate service however, maybe people would have other expectations.
mahathu 4y ago
I noticed this when I switched to an old iPhone (11) after my phone finally broke down after using android for the last 10 years. I'm liking it so far but it really opened my eyes how much the apple ecosystem is embedded in the OS, and through that likewise with the google apps on android. On iOS i noticed how the OS is very opinionated on how you use it, and I guess that's fine for most users, it's just kind of scary to think about how news and other information is curated by the algorithms before we get to see it. And also how locked into the ecosystem you become if you always follow the OS suggestions and just start using Apple Calendar/Keychain/Maps etc. It's understandable the company wants to make a profit and that the primary objective isn't to make hard- or software that is best for the user, but it still makes me feel a bit "uneasy".
thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
>> Digital assistants do not exist to serve you or your interests. You should assume that your every interaction with one will be exploited in some way for someone else's benefit, or leaked and/or sold to some third party without your knowledge, or both. Correct. Siri is Apple's tool, not yours despite appearences: https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57 https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57
jrmg 4y ago
On that Guardian link: you can switch off allowing Apple to use your Siri input for training: Settings -> Privacy & Security -> Analytics & Improvements -> Improve Siri and Dictation switch. It has the explanatory text ‘Help improve Siri and Dictation by allowing Apple to store and review audio of your Siri and Dictation interactions from this device.’ next to it. I’m pretty sure the initial state of this is set by your response to a specific question about it during phone setup.
- SergeAx 4y ago
  Only four levels of nesting menus? How generous!
  - spdustin 4y ago
    As the GP remembered, the option to share training audio with Apple is presented clearly during the OOBE setup for Siri.
- esperent 4y ago
  > https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-analytics-class-action-suit-1849774313 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-analytics-class-act... Apple is currently being sued because they only apply their "do not use analytics" setting to other companies analytics. Apple analytics still track you. Given that, I would not trust any privacy setting from this company.
  - jrmg 4y ago
    I wish I could read the complaint (5:22-cv-07069 - doesn’t seem to be available online?) - but I think it’s more nuanced than that. The complaint alleges, I think, that if you switch off ‘device analytics’ on your phone (the ‘Share iPhone Analytics’ setting?), the App Store app will still send some data about your device to Apple.
    - esperent 4y ago
      Yes but only from Apple apps, and not just "some" data but apparently "all the data" as in everything you do, every click, every scroll, every button you press, it's all recorded and sent to Apple. At least according to these researchers and this lawsuit.

lnsru 4y ago

That’s why I am slowly training myself to leave the cellphone in the shelf at the house’s exit. Ironically loosing the “mobile” feature of the mobile phone. I see other people sticking paper pieces on both cameras already. I also see people having Alexa in every room:-/ Interesting new age and I feel being Luddite in it.

batch12 4y ago
I was thinking about the idea of being considered a luddite for opting out of 'smart things' yesterday. I don't think that deciding not to use intrusive surveillance in my home should qualify. I still extensively use technology. I don't consider the mining of my data as a trade for voice controlled searching to be technological progress. Give me the same solution-- one I can trust-- one that I can fully control and I will use it. Let me understand and alter the technology as I see fit. To me, that's the opposite of a luddite. I am not going to let the marketing departments of these advertising agencies manipulate me into thinking otherwise.
- mcculley 4y ago
  Luddite is not the best term. The way I have been putting it: We are all Amish now, forced to evaluate each new technology we use lest it use us.
nolok 4y ago
Android users here so I genuinely don't know: can't the voice trigger for Siri be entirely disabled ? I know I never allow my phone to listen for trigger (or even the entirely worse "keep listening when locked for the trigger", aka always record what I say even if I'm not using my phone). Now whether it does respect my choice or still record but disable triggering is another matter, but that's sadly the world we got into with our purchasing choices of phones, and why I support the EU going after such privacy issues.
- mgrandl 4y ago
  Yes it can be disabled completely.
- jrmg 4y ago
  You’re being hyperbolic. It’s not ‘aka always record what I say even if I'm not using my phone’. It’s processing the audio at all times to detect the trigger words.

survirtual 4y ago

If you won’t say it, I will: Apple is wrong for what they’re doing. These are tools that should be serving their users, not their creators.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
What is the basis of right/wrong in this value judgment and why is this basis correct and the others not?
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  It is wrong that they do not do, what the user who payed for it, asked it to do. A task it can do, but choose to do a different task, that is better in the intereet of the corporation. It is a quite harmles example, but it is zelling of the general state of things and where we are heading. If I buy a device I assume I own it. Thats how it should be. Not that I rent it and the rules to rent change all the time.
  - farias0 4y ago
    Is it not reasonable to expect that the keyword "share" functions the same as the share button? I don't know the standards you have for the things you buy, but I find unacceptable that a thing I paid (handsomely) for twists my orders to share adverting to my contacts under my name, and part of the reason things are so bad is because at every valid criticism there are people defending these stuff as normal
- rendall 4y ago
  One could ask this same question of any terrible, unethical thing. The reasonable expectation is that a digital assistant will work for its user and not the corporation that sold it. The corporation is trading on this expectation to exploit its users.
  - hnews_account_1 4y ago
    This is not a reasonable expectation for a digital assistant. At all. It is reasonable for a hacker to expect it. But the majority of the public doesn’t care that Apple tries to push Apple Music. If this was sold as a separate service however, maybe people would have other expectations.

mahathu 4y ago

I noticed this when I switched to an old iPhone (11) after my phone finally broke down after using android for the last 10 years. I'm liking it so far but it really opened my eyes how much the apple ecosystem is embedded in the OS, and through that likewise with the google apps on android. On iOS i noticed how the OS is very opinionated on how you use it, and I guess that's fine for most users, it's just kind of scary to think about how news and other information is curated by the algorithms before we get to see it. And also how locked into the ecosystem you become if you always follow the OS suggestions and just start using Apple Calendar/Keychain/Maps etc. It's understandable the company wants to make a profit and that the primary objective isn't to make hard- or software that is best for the user, but it still makes me feel a bit "uneasy".

thesuperbigfrog 4y ago

>> Digital assistants do not exist to serve you or your interests. You should assume that your every interaction with one will be exploited in some way for someone else's benefit, or leaked and/or sold to some third party without your knowledge, or both. Correct. Siri is Apple's tool, not yours despite appearences: https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57 https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57

jrmg 4y ago

On that Guardian link: you can switch off allowing Apple to use your Siri input for training: Settings -> Privacy & Security -> Analytics & Improvements -> Improve Siri and Dictation switch. It has the explanatory text ‘Help improve Siri and Dictation by allowing Apple to store and review audio of your Siri and Dictation interactions from this device.’ next to it. I’m pretty sure the initial state of this is set by your response to a specific question about it during phone setup.

SergeAx 4y ago
Only four levels of nesting menus? How generous!
- spdustin 4y ago
  As the GP remembered, the option to share training audio with Apple is presented clearly during the OOBE setup for Siri.
esperent 4y ago
> https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-analytics-class-action-suit-1849774313 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-analytics-class-act... Apple is currently being sued because they only apply their "do not use analytics" setting to other companies analytics. Apple analytics still track you. Given that, I would not trust any privacy setting from this company.
- jrmg 4y ago
  I wish I could read the complaint (5:22-cv-07069 - doesn’t seem to be available online?) - but I think it’s more nuanced than that. The complaint alleges, I think, that if you switch off ‘device analytics’ on your phone (the ‘Share iPhone Analytics’ setting?), the App Store app will still send some data about your device to Apple.
  - esperent 4y ago
    Yes but only from Apple apps, and not just "some" data but apparently "all the data" as in everything you do, every click, every scroll, every button you press, it's all recorded and sent to Apple. At least according to these researchers and this lawsuit.