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Very much like a soldier refusing to execute immoral orders, we need the smartest engineers working at these companies to stop implementing such features. As it

Very much like a soldier refusing to execute immoral orders, we need the smartest engineers working at these companies to stop implementing such features. As it stands, engineers working in big tech are often celebrated on platforms like HN. Especially the companies that are just creating spying machines, and addictive time-wasters. We outlaw addictive chemical substances, and maybe such tech should also be looked at in similar light. At our company, the use of cell phones is not permitted inside certain manufacturing zones. It's a bit sad to see some of the younger employees being very restless when they can't check their phone every 30 seconds.

Jensson 4y ago
> We outlaw addictive chemical substances, and maybe such tech should also be looked at in similar light. Yeah, so the solution is not to convince engineers, but to convince politicians to get laws like GDPR. Trying to convince workers or companies to stop earning money has never worked well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- trap_goes_hot 4y ago
  Smartest engineers have an abundance of choice as to where they can work. There needs to be a stigma where working on spying tech is frowned upon. >Trying to convince workers or companies to stop earning money has never worked well. I neither said, nor implied it. Please don't put words in my mouth.
ajb 4y ago
Once you have more than 100 people - and there are obviously more than 100 "smartest engineers" - solutions of the form "everyone should be ethical enough not to do this, without further incentives" are impractical.
- trap_goes_hot 4y ago
  The incentive to not work at a company that makes spying tech is already there. It needs to be highlighted at every opportunity.
cr4nberry 4y ago
> We outlaw addictive chemical substances, and maybe such tech should also be looked at in similar light. Maybe we should ban sugar also? /s
- trap_goes_hot 4y ago
  There is no positive benefit of technology created to spy on people online. We have seen social media bubbles that arise due to algorithmically driven content discovery/suggestions. As such, there is no inherent superiority to laws that currently exist versus those that don't. We should change laws as we see fit so that we are creating a society where all humans can flourish. Maximal personal freedom leading to a maximal 'good' of human society is just a belief, not a fact. And like all beliefs, they are subject to debate. Sugar is a carbohydrate, and carbohydrates are nutrients. As with all things you put in, or do to, your body, you have to do it in moderation, and with consideration. Homeostasis is your friend (usually!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis
  - cr4nberry 4y ago
    > There is no positive benefit of technology created to spy on people online. There definitely is. Personalization is more effective than blind advertising. This can be either a benefit or an extreme drawback depending on how you see the economic system > We have seen social media bubbles that arise due to algorithmically driven content discovery/suggestions. Imo these platforms are bad for personal growth and should be avoided, but so should TV for the exact same reason. You could replace internet with TV in this situation, the addiction problem would still be the same. Getting rid of social media wouldn't solve the media addiction problem The additional problem with bubbles and personalization is it targets more aggressively, which can lead to people getting targeted by predatory advertisements. The initial problem here isn't the personalization, it's the fact that the economic system is predatory. Personalization is just pouring gas on the fire
    - trap_goes_hot 4y ago
      The word benefit here was in the larger social context. I believe that privacy is a legal right, and so I see the issue a bit differently. You're implying the data can be misused, my point is the data should not be collected to begin with. I strongly believe that removing the apparatus itself is the best method to prevent misuse. The moment you have a data collection division - the very first thing they're going to want to do is self-preservation. And the best way to preserve a division and get raises is to show how valuable they are. The easiest way to do this is by linking it to revenue in some fashion. Its so very human.

Jensson 4y ago

> We outlaw addictive chemical substances, and maybe such tech should also be looked at in similar light. Yeah, so the solution is not to convince engineers, but to convince politicians to get laws like GDPR. Trying to convince workers or companies to stop earning money has never worked well.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
trap_goes_hot 4y ago
Smartest engineers have an abundance of choice as to where they can work. There needs to be a stigma where working on spying tech is frowned upon. >Trying to convince workers or companies to stop earning money has never worked well. I neither said, nor implied it. Please don't put words in my mouth.

ajb 4y ago

Once you have more than 100 people - and there are obviously more than 100 "smartest engineers" - solutions of the form "everyone should be ethical enough not to do this, without further incentives" are impractical.

trap_goes_hot 4y ago
The incentive to not work at a company that makes spying tech is already there. It needs to be highlighted at every opportunity.

cr4nberry 4y ago

> We outlaw addictive chemical substances, and maybe such tech should also be looked at in similar light. Maybe we should ban sugar also? /s

trap_goes_hot 4y ago
There is no positive benefit of technology created to spy on people online. We have seen social media bubbles that arise due to algorithmically driven content discovery/suggestions. As such, there is no inherent superiority to laws that currently exist versus those that don't. We should change laws as we see fit so that we are creating a society where all humans can flourish. Maximal personal freedom leading to a maximal 'good' of human society is just a belief, not a fact. And like all beliefs, they are subject to debate. Sugar is a carbohydrate, and carbohydrates are nutrients. As with all things you put in, or do to, your body, you have to do it in moderation, and with consideration. Homeostasis is your friend (usually!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis
- cr4nberry 4y ago
  > There is no positive benefit of technology created to spy on people online. There definitely is. Personalization is more effective than blind advertising. This can be either a benefit or an extreme drawback depending on how you see the economic system > We have seen social media bubbles that arise due to algorithmically driven content discovery/suggestions. Imo these platforms are bad for personal growth and should be avoided, but so should TV for the exact same reason. You could replace internet with TV in this situation, the addiction problem would still be the same. Getting rid of social media wouldn't solve the media addiction problem The additional problem with bubbles and personalization is it targets more aggressively, which can lead to people getting targeted by predatory advertisements. The initial problem here isn't the personalization, it's the fact that the economic system is predatory. Personalization is just pouring gas on the fire
  - trap_goes_hot 4y ago
    The word benefit here was in the larger social context. I believe that privacy is a legal right, and so I see the issue a bit differently. You're implying the data can be misused, my point is the data should not be collected to begin with. I strongly believe that removing the apparatus itself is the best method to prevent misuse. The moment you have a data collection division - the very first thing they're going to want to do is self-preservation. And the best way to preserve a division and get raises is to show how valuable they are. The easiest way to do this is by linking it to revenue in some fashion. Its so very human.