5 ms·

Patrol officers today are police AND crisis responders, mental health crisis managers, family dispute de-escalators, critical medical care responders, victim co

Patrol officers today are police AND crisis responders, mental health crisis managers, family dispute de-escalators, critical medical care responders, victim counselors, etc. And they switch hats many times a day & then go home to their own difficulties. They do all this for - on average - $60k per year. They enjoy increased suicide risk, increase risk of work-related disability and injury, increased risk of divorce, and so on. If there were ever a profession in American that deserved more resource and less responsibility (or diversification of staffing) its police. Instead we ask too much, cut funding and criticize the outcomes. Like politicans, we get the police we deserve.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
feet 4y ago
Police funding has been increasing in the US year after year
- robocat 4y ago
  Police-officers-per-capita is the metric to use. https://i1.wp.com/blog.skepticallibertarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/cops-per-capita.png https://i1.wp.com/blog.skepticallibertarian.com/wp-content/u... Funding is a fairly meaningless metric because it usually includes corrections department funding (courts and prisons), and it is hard to adjust for: GDP growth, population growth, and inflation. The term funding is so loose that it can mean whatever you wish. “While the number of sworn police officers has increased by 26% since 1987, that expansion has not kept pace with the growth of the general population. As a result, there were 11.5% fewer officers per capita in 2016 than there were in 1987.“ “ Spending on police nearly tripled (increasing by 168%) between 1977 and 2018, when adjusted for inflation. Per capita spending on police also grew during this period, but at a lower level, close to doubling (83% higher in 2018 than in 1977). However, spending on law enforcement accounts for a small share of total state and local government expenditures, and that portion has remained virtually unchanged over the past four decades, hovering at around 3.7%.” I think that trite one sentence statements make it difficult to have interesting conversation. I knew nothing about the topic: the above is from a little quick googling that anyone could do.
  - feet 4y ago
    Your quick googling is relying on an extremely suspect website. Blog posts are not good source material. Any librarian would tell you that at a glance.
    - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
      By all means share your sources, then.
    - robocat 4y ago
      Please provide better sources - I want to be corrected if I am wrong. You have provided no evidence against my major point: anyone arguing about “funding” is just a politically biased argument — because it sounds bad that funding has increased as a number. Yet funding hasn’t increased as proportionally. Cops per capita, and police funding percentage of budget, are less political metrics in my opinion.
  - divided 4y ago
    First, I don’t think there’s just one metric to use, and it’s a tall argument to say funding of all things should be ignored. Second, I think the stat you focused in on probably doesn’t tell enough of the story, either. Crime rate is HALF what it was in 1987, so police per crime is significantly up since then. Also, advancements in policing and technology would lead to fewer officers needed per capita if they’re like most industries. For instance, we have 25% fewer pilots per capita[1], but 3x the flights of 1990. [1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/537863/number-of-pilots-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/537863/number-of-pilots-...
    - robocat 4y ago
      > Crime rate is HALF what it was in 1987 My main point is that we can pick whatever biased metric we like, which you demonstrate so perfectly by cherry picking your date, and you choose some unknown “crime rate” figure which depends on your assumptions which you haven’t stated. Here’s a graph which shows homicide rates vary, but there definitely is no trend that demonstrates a decline of half: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FT_19.08.14_GunDeaths_2.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FT_19... The usual biased opinions (regurgitated without thought) choose some figure based on “serious crime”, but as a community we also care about lesser crimes, like bikes getting stolen (California). The easiest way to reduce “crime” is simply to stop enforcing it and the number of convictions will drop.
- PhasmaFelis 4y ago
  Not much of that seems to find its way to officer paychecks. Police should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us, and the ones who can meet those standards should have pay, training, vacation, and benefits to match. Police work should be made attractive to the best and the brightest among us.
  - feet 4y ago
    Don't officers in CA make 120k+?
    - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
      Some of them, probably. Urban California is not the US in general.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    since it's well known that many police departments weed out recruits with high IQs I don't think there's general agreement on your closing sentiment.
    - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
      Yes, that's the problem. We treat police as "laborers" instead of the highly skilled and trained specialists they should be.
donclark 4y ago
No mention of pension or other benefits?
divided 4y ago
> Instead we ask too much, cut funding and criticize the outcomes. The movement that was partially aimed to stop asking so much of police officers by distributing those responsibilities mentioned in your first sentence to others (Defund the Police) was almost entirely unsuccessful. As the peer poster mentioned, there are almost no instances of police budgets being cut. You are correct about us criticizing the outcomes, though. It would help if you better understood why the outcomes are criticized, though. US police killings are 7th most in the world, with peers like Syria and Afghanistan. If you look at it on a per capita basis, US police kill at a rate 3x higher than the next closest developed nation, 10x-20x more than most developed nations. The NYPD—a police department—has a greater budget than the entire military of Ukraine—with 1/5th the population. Its budget would make it the 33rd largest military in the world. If their role is supposed to be stopping crime, I know you’re aware that the US has among the highest crime rates of any developed nations. If their role is supposed to be investigating and solving crimes, our police officers are among the worst in the world at the clearance rate. So. A single police department with more budget than most of the world’s militaries. The sum of our police spending dwarfs other nations. Our police kill more citizens, our crime rate is higher, and fewer of our crimes get solved. What’s not to criticize?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

feet 4y ago

Police funding has been increasing in the US year after year

robocat 4y ago
Police-officers-per-capita is the metric to use. https://i1.wp.com/blog.skepticallibertarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/cops-per-capita.png https://i1.wp.com/blog.skepticallibertarian.com/wp-content/u... Funding is a fairly meaningless metric because it usually includes corrections department funding (courts and prisons), and it is hard to adjust for: GDP growth, population growth, and inflation. The term funding is so loose that it can mean whatever you wish. “While the number of sworn police officers has increased by 26% since 1987, that expansion has not kept pace with the growth of the general population. As a result, there were 11.5% fewer officers per capita in 2016 than there were in 1987.“ “ Spending on police nearly tripled (increasing by 168%) between 1977 and 2018, when adjusted for inflation. Per capita spending on police also grew during this period, but at a lower level, close to doubling (83% higher in 2018 than in 1977). However, spending on law enforcement accounts for a small share of total state and local government expenditures, and that portion has remained virtually unchanged over the past four decades, hovering at around 3.7%.” I think that trite one sentence statements make it difficult to have interesting conversation. I knew nothing about the topic: the above is from a little quick googling that anyone could do.
- feet 4y ago
  Your quick googling is relying on an extremely suspect website. Blog posts are not good source material. Any librarian would tell you that at a glance.
  - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
    By all means share your sources, then.
  - robocat 4y ago
    Please provide better sources - I want to be corrected if I am wrong. You have provided no evidence against my major point: anyone arguing about “funding” is just a politically biased argument — because it sounds bad that funding has increased as a number. Yet funding hasn’t increased as proportionally. Cops per capita, and police funding percentage of budget, are less political metrics in my opinion.
- divided 4y ago
  First, I don’t think there’s just one metric to use, and it’s a tall argument to say funding of all things should be ignored. Second, I think the stat you focused in on probably doesn’t tell enough of the story, either. Crime rate is HALF what it was in 1987, so police per crime is significantly up since then. Also, advancements in policing and technology would lead to fewer officers needed per capita if they’re like most industries. For instance, we have 25% fewer pilots per capita[1], but 3x the flights of 1990. [1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/537863/number-of-pilots-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/537863/number-of-pilots-...
  - robocat 4y ago
    > Crime rate is HALF what it was in 1987 My main point is that we can pick whatever biased metric we like, which you demonstrate so perfectly by cherry picking your date, and you choose some unknown “crime rate” figure which depends on your assumptions which you haven’t stated. Here’s a graph which shows homicide rates vary, but there definitely is no trend that demonstrates a decline of half: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FT_19.08.14_GunDeaths_2.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FT_19... The usual biased opinions (regurgitated without thought) choose some figure based on “serious crime”, but as a community we also care about lesser crimes, like bikes getting stolen (California). The easiest way to reduce “crime” is simply to stop enforcing it and the number of convictions will drop.
PhasmaFelis 4y ago
Not much of that seems to find its way to officer paychecks. Police should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us, and the ones who can meet those standards should have pay, training, vacation, and benefits to match. Police work should be made attractive to the best and the brightest among us.
- feet 4y ago
  Don't officers in CA make 120k+?
  - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
    Some of them, probably. Urban California is not the US in general.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  since it's well known that many police departments weed out recruits with high IQs I don't think there's general agreement on your closing sentiment.
  - PhasmaFelis 4y ago
    Yes, that's the problem. We treat police as "laborers" instead of the highly skilled and trained specialists they should be.

donclark 4y ago

No mention of pension or other benefits?

divided 4y ago

> Instead we ask too much, cut funding and criticize the outcomes. The movement that was partially aimed to stop asking so much of police officers by distributing those responsibilities mentioned in your first sentence to others (Defund the Police) was almost entirely unsuccessful. As the peer poster mentioned, there are almost no instances of police budgets being cut. You are correct about us criticizing the outcomes, though. It would help if you better understood why the outcomes are criticized, though. US police killings are 7th most in the world, with peers like Syria and Afghanistan. If you look at it on a per capita basis, US police kill at a rate 3x higher than the next closest developed nation, 10x-20x more than most developed nations. The NYPD—a police department—has a greater budget than the entire military of Ukraine—with 1/5th the population. Its budget would make it the 33rd largest military in the world. If their role is supposed to be stopping crime, I know you’re aware that the US has among the highest crime rates of any developed nations. If their role is supposed to be investigating and solving crimes, our police officers are among the worst in the world at the clearance rate. So. A single police department with more budget than most of the world’s militaries. The sum of our police spending dwarfs other nations. Our police kill more citizens, our crime rate is higher, and fewer of our crimes get solved. What’s not to criticize?