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Ask HN: How do you deal with the human ability to never take responsibility

• ianai 4y ago
  Allow failure 'with grace.' People deny as long as they can that which they fear above a threshold. If failure/etc can be viewed as just a part of a larger life then it can be easier to admit failure. "Fail early, fail often" and all that. We're in a state of a maximum denialism though. It reminds me of working in a casino for several hours, walking outside, and only then realizing just how much second hand smoke I was immersed within the casino. Those first few breaths of 'fresher air' would have a tint of second hand smoke, still, and of course my clothes would stink. (I work a mask at the time and it helped, a little. I'd go home and take a very long shower.) Society is so immersed in denialism and "second-hand" denialism that it doesn't even realize how bad it is, yet.
  • ianai 4y ago
    Also, at some point, it's categorically imperative to accept or conclude that someone will simply never tell the truth or own up to the faults/failures. Their continued denialism is more about their internal mental health than reality. Treat them with care and preferably distance. If you must interact with them then document absolutely everything important with photos/screenshots, emails to yourself, and whatever supportive documentation you can wrap around yourself. Denialism turns into gaslighting which is abuse and must be handled properly, carefully.
    • jesuscript 4y ago
      Did you just reply to your own fucking message? Lol
      • ianai 4y ago
        over 20 minutes had gone by - way too long for an edit.
        • jesuscript 4y ago
          You just make me laugh. Thanks for that, it’s a big ass universe, and you at least gave me that.
• incomingpain 4y ago
  >I notice this in myself and many others. Everyone. This is literally the first chapter of 'how to win friends and influence people.' The fundamental rule being taught is to never criticism or condemn someone. How do you deal with it? By not. When someone does something good, you reward and acknowledge. >The mental gymnastics we play to deflect. Only in a defensive state. When you criticise you get here but if you never experience criticism, you are actually able to grow. >Just about everyone plays this game. Elon just did this recently and wrecked havoc on the Twitter staff. Twitter made some serious mistakes which led into Elon buying. The blame does NOT lay at the feet of Elon. The political activist who banned the ny post and the hunter biden laptop story is the one who ought to be condemned. But there's no point, they know what they did. They'll never learn anything and will do it again. The nypost sat on the story for some time to release it at the most damaging time. Twitter's political activists had their hands revealed. The story wasn't even a big deal, biden himself doesn't get to pick his family. The real story was twitter's political activism. After their hand was revealed, they obviously started doing it in public. >How do we deal with this? You stay positive. Never criticise or condemn. The big problem of political polarization as we saw during the yellow journalism days; since we have had a return to yellow journalism; it's important to bridge the gap. Dont criticize your political opponents but acknowledge when they have done something good. The republicans learnt this lesson the hard way. You have democrats like tulsi gabbard who regularly talks at conservative conventions. They acknowledge she's right on point and ultimately there are many democrats who are quite reasonable people. This has shifted MANY independents and democrats into the republican camp. The red wave was a certainty because they dropped the condemnation. Gavin Newsome even said it was a red wave. It's because republicans opened up the conversation with the democrats. This is what politics should be and by doing this will be decisive. I leave it to you to explain how the red wave didn't occur. The answer is very bad.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    I heard a whole lot, but what’s the solution?
    • incomingpain 4y ago
      I answered this question twice. You simply don't do anything. Never criticise, never condemn. You can let people spin their stories in their head and leave it such.
• LinuxBender 4y ago
  How do you deal with the human ability to never take responsibility I suppose it depends on the underlying causes and how extreme the end effect. There are psychological issues [1] that are more common in adolescence that most grow out of but some do not. One can not encourage others seek help especially if they are in denial so perhaps the only solution is to distance ones self from them or try to tune them out. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    Labels. I read them too. Understanding is a whole different thing.
    • LinuxBender 4y ago
      Labels are un-fun but as someone who has a family member with the issue I can not dispute the definition. It is a real issue and quite challenging for everyone involved.
      • jesuscript 4y ago
        Did it have to be, is the question. Did you help make the label?
        • LinuxBender 4y ago
          Did you help make the label? No, a collection of psycho-analysts made the label and the description. The label is for the extreme condition of what was being described.
          • jesuscript 4y ago
            What is extreme? And to who? Who watches the label makers?
• yuppie_scum 4y ago
  You’ll find a lot of power in ownership and effort. If you can assert that you have done everything in your power to accomplish something, nobody can criticize you.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    I suppose you are an alien and haven’t lived on this earth. We can criticize you for how you breath.
• effnorwood 4y ago
• achrono 4y ago
  "[...] let a person confess within reason" That evidently is where everything gets messy. We don't have a way (yet) to determine if it is "within reason". Transcending this tendency of deflection requires transcending the notion of the self -- the deflection is after all for the sake of the self and for those experts at deflection it may have been an especially crucial ingredient for their success. The good news is that we already do transcend the self, or at least seek to do so, in many ways. But I think we (meaning modern Western society and allies) aren't able to digest the full implications of this -- something the Buddhists understood very well, which is that you can only get there with total renunciation and not a wishful combination of self-transcendence with tons of material prosperity sustained over long periods of time.
  • mistermann 4y ago
    It seems to me that most people can transcend the self when discussing abstract ideas (say, the topic of conversation is cognitive bias), but during certain object level conversations (say, political matters) the ability seems to essentially vanish. People can realize they are subject to bias when considering that abstract idea directly, but not when they are contemplating object level matters. I think the phenomenon is fairly decently explained by Mike Tyson: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".
• nostrademons 4y ago
  Plenty of people have this ability - the vast majority of people in my personal & professional life take responsibility for their mistakes, own up to them, and try to make them right. Even my four year old occasionally does it. The problem is that we've created a system where political and corporate discourse does not allow these people to rise to the top, and selects for people who deflect and never admit wrongdoing. Given a large enough audience, there is always some vocal minority who will crucify you for any mistake. If you wish to lead an organization or institution with a large stakeholder base, you learn to never admit the mistake, because if you do you will soon not be leading that institution. This is why we can't have nice things. I think there's a relatively simple fix, but it'll probably never happen because it's contrary to why we have leaders in the first place. If the masses crucified leaders for mistakes they made but didn't admit rather than mistakes they admitted, the incentive would be to avoid making mistakes, not avoid admitting them. But this would require that everyone "trust but verify", and that they do (or at least believe) independent research into the performance of their leaders. The whole reason we have leaders and specialization is so that the masses do not need to perform this time-consuming and intellectually-draining work. This is also why we can't have nice things.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    Yes, I come from shitty parenting too.
    • waltbosz 4y ago
      how do you pronounce your alias? is it jesus-script, or jez-yew-script? Hmm, I wonder if there are any religions based around the worship of a programming language They could cite their lore as StringUtil.xjs:Slice:1-23
      • jesuscript 4y ago
        I can recite you, yes.
      • bretthowell 4y ago
• rufus_foreman 4y ago
  >> How do you deal with the human ability to never take responsibility It's not my problem.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    What if I make it your problem? You are here responding to me right? What if I take your time?
• nells 4y ago
  You don’t win anything by taking responsibility but you can lose a lot.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    This is a story I don’t like. The World Cup is soon, and to say the losers aren’t brilliant, is a mistake. I commend the effort.
  • indymike 4y ago
    > You don’t win anything by taking responsibility but you can lose a lot. Only in a culture of fault and blame.
  • ajkjk 4y ago
    You can win by taking responsibility if the organization you're in is healthy and not cruel and dysfunctional.
• juujian 4y ago
  I'm not saying that I do not understand the question, but let me give you another perspective on this. How have you dealt with this so far? The world has not changed. (Maybe our awareness of it has.) Immorality and deflection is and old problem in philosophy. The oldest Caesar's shameless propaganda in de Bello Gallico. I think there are different ways to tackle this. The first one is to accept the inability of people to take responsibility as part of the worlds we live in. Accept the issue as human nature, just like we accept the rain, because nonacceptance really does not change the fact that it periodically occurs. Maybe in a Buddhist kind of way--although disclaimer I do not know a lot about Buddhism. And note that we still protect ourselves against the weather and try to reach safe land. We cannot control certain phenomena, but we can control how we feel about them and how they affect us. Or you can set out to build a better world. There is no indication that irresponsibility and grift is becoming less prevalent in the world. But it is still a meaningful goal to pursue a world where actions have consequences. And speaking out at the right time can be quite rewarding. Though you will likely have to deal with the fact that on aggregate we still will not responsibility for what we do, other than local instances. And speaking out and holding people responsible will probably not lead to rewards in your career, business, etc.--rather the opposite. We all have to decide what our goals are and what world we want to work toward.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    I hear you. There’s a war in Ukraine. Did our understanding help? Futile, is why I write. The writers pen is always powerlessness. Here, take it.
    • juujian 4y ago
      That resonates with me.
    • foooobaba 4y ago
      I’ll pick up the pen and give it a go. I argue that lack of understanding and communication is why there is even a war. The war only benefits a small amount of people, the various authorities of NATO and Russian authorities depending who wins. NATO authorities stand to gain by threatening Russia leading up the war, which can be used as leverage in other negotiations to exploit Russia, and Russian authorities stand to gain for whatever spoils it gets, and reducing the threat of NATO presence in Ukraine. But what about all us individual people, and solders duped into fighting this war? The war doesn’t help the common people in the rest of the world, people in Ukraine, or the common people in Russia, with the sanctions hurting the economics and people’s livelihood. The war doesn’t benefit the solders dying. But because the communication is influenced/controlled by the various authorities, a mass lack of understanding of how we as individual people can work together exists. We think we have to kill each other, but do we? There is propaganda, and lies being spread to help make it happen, which is the opposite of understanding. We have thousands of people spending their time killing each other. Instead of helping out, understanding each other, finding the balance of meeting each others needs. We have people listening to the various authorities that tell us to go threaten and kill each other. If we don’t listen, we may be threatened by people who do, people that don’t understand that this is a waste of time that could be spent doing something beneficial. In the end, way more people will be left suffering than those who benefited, including the ones on the ground actually pulling the trigger, making it happen. If we could come to this understanding together, as individuals, without the corruption of authorities trying to manipulate us into killing each other, would we still be fighting? I don’t think so. Even the authorities, will they achieve peace and happiness, since now they will have to constantly watch their back, fear losing their power, double down on their lies to stay in power, because they now created more enemies, suffering, and hate?
• kabanossen 4y ago
  It has to do with how much you empathize with people. Responsibility follows from empathy. When you care about someone enough you also take responsibility for your actions toward this person. So we need to show care for each other, empathize with those closest to us as well as everyone else.
  • foooobaba 4y ago
    This is the truth. We should look out for each other, and try to build one another up. Instead of exploiting and taking from each other to achieve security, let’s understand and help one another so we can live in peace and balance with ourselves, each other, and laws of nature.
    • it-is-you 4y ago
      What are some self preservation strategies you've found useful to surviving in workplaces when you experience "exploiting and taking from each other to achieve security?" Which behaviors have you found most common? How do you find/select organizations or communities that "look out for each other, and try to build one another up?"
  • it-is-you 4y ago
    How does this occur in workplaces?
    • kabanossen 4y ago
      In workplaces I'd say it happens if there's an empathetic culture, if leadership and employees see each other and care about more than the product, care about the team. This manifests in many ways, for example leaders asking for and appreciating critique, building on it, maybe instituting a shorter workweek instead of a pay raise (if that's what employees want).
• anon-phgh93vtmx 4y ago
  On dealing with others: Don’t spend time around these people if you can help it. It will likely not be healthy for you in the long run. These types of people rarely meaningfully change and when they do it’s very slow and they must truly want to. If you cannot do that then make sure you have a social group you can spend time with who does take responsibility for their actions. If you have been in that sort of environment too long make sure you are measuring your worth and happiness on internal rather than external markers of success or value. Mindfulness meditation can help here as well.
• dahart 4y ago
  Starting a startup did wonders for me in terms of taking responsibility for my own state of being, regardless of who else was involved or what they did. I’m not entirely sure where I got it from. I had started thinking that way somewhat, but I also started reading some ‘how to be a founder’ type material at the time that suggests leveling up your responsibility. Either way, I adopted a stance that when bad things happen, even if someone intentionally does something to harm me, it’s still my fault because I put myself in the situation. I decided I would take full responsibility for the state of the company no matter what. The helpful part of that isn’t so much that I accept blame, the most helpful part is that it empowers me to always do something about it. Accepting blame is tangibly helpful though in confrontations and communications. I don’t know if “we” deal with this, it might be something where you can only practice yourself, and model such behavior for others. At some level, deflection and blame is part of the human nature of fear, but you can reject that within your own sphere at least. The key to getting it to catch on might be to demonstrate the value and personal benefits of this mentality to others, and also to reject blame narratives with a very compassionate and forgiving touch. Being aggressive about telling someone what not to do, e.g. smacking someone else in the head, rarely ever works. The head smack that works is the one that comes from within, and might only stick when surrounded by people you trust.
• indymike 4y ago
  Individually this is hard. People grow up inside of families and cultures that are "blame and punish". This kind of culture ends up being self-destructive: people can't learn from their mistakes, and will do anything to avoid blame and the punishment (loss of status, money, etc...) that comes with it. In this culture, dishonesty, manipulation and politics are the norm. Incidentally, iteration and coordination is difficult because there is no incentive to do things where you may be blamed for others out of your span of influence. On the other side, there is a "culture of learning", where we expect sometimes to fail, and we save blame and punishment for people who do not learn from their failures (in practice, this is a lot like repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome). Yes, sometimes a mistake is costly, but if the person making the mistake learns not to repeat it, we win. If we find a way to make that mistake impossible in the future, we win. In this environment, honesty can be expected (confessing within reason), and will be the norm. In a culture of learning, iteration becomes a way of life and cross organization coordination is much easier. In my business life I much prefer a culture of learning or one of blame, and in hiring, especially mid a senior level people, I'm careful to hire people that value learning and like to put problems on trial instead of people.
  • jesuscript 4y ago
    “Culture of learning” got fetishized too. Are you learning in NYU or some university? Where are you learning?
    • indymike 4y ago
      No and starting six companies, raising five kids and going around the sun one too many times.
  • it-is-you 4y ago
    Are there explicit processes or interactions involved in learning as a culture that one can use to identify if you're in a culture of learning? Where would you expect "blame and punish" to come from? From authority, or from peers?
    • 4y ago
• jwie 4y ago
  There’s rarely an upside to apologizing. It’s way easier to make someone else look worse than to do better. So blowing tiny mistakes out of proportion to take others down a peg is an effective strategy. Most mistakes don’t matter. They cost so little, and the alternative to small mistakes is so much worse, that a mistake is the best outcome systematically if you consider the all-in costs. You can make “no mistakes” but take forever to get anything done, and that is more costly all in, but you didn’t make a “mistake” that anyone can pin on you. But if your organization can’t account for those costs, or even comprehend them, “no mistakes” becomes the target. ”No mistakes” turns out to be ruinous, because nobody was allowed to make small errors, move fast, and learn along the way.
• Bhaskar13 4y ago
  It needs to come from higher up. Most Politicians(at least Indian) never take responsibility and the people who follow them behave the same way. They feel like if they agree that it is their fault, they will be punished or career-suicide. If you are in a company environment, if we see our leaders/managers acknowledge it is their mistake, we also acknowledge when it is our mistake. otherwise it will be blame game. And in family settings too
• blisterpeanuts 4y ago
  I’ve always tried to teach my child to be honest and admit to guilt. More importantly, to recognize the differences between right and wrong, and to make good decisions particularly when it’s a nuanced situation and not completely clear what’s right. It’s been a tough slog. We have caught her with vapes, with a bottle of vodka, and likely has used pot though we have no proof. We have explained the risks and legalities of these various activities, how we recognize she’s on the cusp of adulthood but we are still responsible for her wellbeing and we deeply care about her safety and happiness. Mostly, we try to set a good example by being honest and fessing up about our own many mistakes and shortcomings. She knows people in high school whose parents are split up, whose dads are in prison for heinous crimes, who have suffered abuse, and she admits that she’s fortunate. I believe humans have an innate sense of justice, but it’s also a muscle that must be exercised and trained. Temptation to take shortcuts will always exist, so the key thing is to give our children the tools to handle every situation as they stumble along the bumpy path of life.
• tenebrisalietum 4y ago
  Stop depending on humans, or particular humans that don't take responsibility. I suspect you really mean "guilt" when you say responsibility. I don't have too much of a problem with guilt because: - I am willing to change perspectives/actions based on new information. So I might hate something at moment X, but stop when I discover new information in moment X+1. That's OK, you've only failed if you fail to adapt to new information. - Adults can and should take care of themselves for the most part, so if someone is trying to trap me in codependency, I have to remind myself (and them) that I am not their parent and it is not my job to take care of them. - You can't save the world, it's too big and you didn't make it in the first place. For any suffering you see, a thousand times more is happening that you don't. But you are not the owner of the world, just yourself. Let the creator of this world run it--who is not asking for your opinion anyway--and you take care of yourself.
• igetspam 4y ago
  Industry wide, we've shifted toward "blameless" operations. People fail, they make mistakes, they break things. That's part of existing. Building a culture that doesn't penalize people for mistakes (with exception, obviously) is, in my opinion, crucial to enabling people to accept responsibility. If you think your mistakes will cost you, how can you be expected to own up to them? If you can't up to them, how can you be honest about what happened? If you can't be honest, how can we improve things going forward? This is a core concept for good incident management and really it should extend to our personal lives as well. I fail the deflection test sometimes but it's always reactionary and I've learned to be able to correct for it, on reflection. I'm still working on not failing on the first pass but I've improved over time because I practice what I preach. Because I focus less on blaming others, I find myself able to be more honest about my mistakes.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• smitty1e 4y ago
  > Religion had a confession booth. You say it and move on. The house of rationality requires you to play out your mistake. What's this? One repents, ponders the true course, and corrects course like an errant ship. There may be attendant apologies, restitution, and relationships to heal. This is only mysterious if one's rejected that spiritual truth.
• foooobaba 4y ago
  The basic reason this happens is fear, which is natural. Fear that by revealing a weakness, something bad can happen, or we may need to change in a way we are not sure is possible, both of which may or may not be the case. However, you should not fear discovering a weakness in yourself, because that is now something that you can learn from. You can learn how to live with it, or improve upon it. If you discover a problem, or someone else discovers one, that is a good thing, it is something that you can work on fixing, even fix it together. Don’t lie to yourself, even if you think you need to lie to others to avoid something bad. Avoid lying to others: it can erode trust, make it difficult to openly be yourself, and you may accidentally lie to yourself in the process. So what to do? You can start by trying to never lie to yourself, with the knowledge that it will only hold you back. Try to accept things for how they are, and how they may play out. Notice that we are not perfect, but at least we can improve and find ways to mitigate our weaknesses (and each others). Don’t dwell on the past, thinking you’re no good, that’s not healthy either. It’s okay to be who you are, with your strengths, weaknesses, set backs, problems, desires, irritations, blessings, mistakes, failures and successes. If we live in balance with them, we will find our way to get through life. Understanding is key to finding balance. Honest, quality communication helps to achieve understanding, and ultimately balance with ourselves, each other, and the natural world.
  • pg_1234 4y ago
    “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” ― Frank Herbert, Dune
• simne 4y ago
  Just give somebody chance to take responsibility and look. Sometimes humans make mistakes, but mostly all divide to who want and take responsibility, and who don't want and don't take. Sometimes people fake responsibility, because got something valuable for them, like possibility to use power to abuse others. After some time you will see.
• known 4y ago