5 ms·

This is not necessarily true depending on code. Some builds do not have grounded outlets as long as a GFCI is installed at the distribution. It’s weird and unn

by KMnO4 4y ago

This is not necessarily true depending on code. Some builds do not have grounded outlets as long as a GFCI is installed at the distribution. It’s weird and unnatural, but there’s nothing inherently wrong.

bastawhiz 4y ago
Saying there's "nothing wrong" when there are obvious, serious hardware issues and a UPS that won't stop beeping is like saying "well there's no law that my tires can't be bald, so I'll keep driving because there's nothing wrong"
- mannykannot 4y ago
  I do not think the situation is the same. I believe GFCI gives excellent protection against shock even if the ground is faulty and the neutral is floating with respect to earth. (Nevertheless, I still want my home to have properly grounded three-pin sockets, even if it is implausible that it will ever make a difference.) I hope an expert can chime in, but I suspect a 'spicy' trackpad would trigger GFCI.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
    GFCI at the breaker should have the ground tied to neutral, and still have grounds on the outlets (tied back to the GFCI at the breaker). Current through the ground pins will trip the GFCI, rendering the system safe. Since the ground pin should be bonded to any exposed metal (e.g. aluminum laptop case) a fault leading to a "spicy touchpad" should instead shut off the entire circuit at the breaker. Just slapping a GFCI in without that bonding won't do anything though. The ground would be floating, and thus wouldn't ever trip the GFCI. There would be no path through the GFCI for the fault current to take, making the system just as dangerous as having an ungrounded conductive case. A "double insulated" system has non-conductive material for the case of the electrical device and only needs a two-pin polarized plug. A fault of live to case won't cause danger, because the case is an insulator. A fault of live to neutral will just blow the device's internal fuse (or trip the breaker if the device has no fuse, but the breaker is just to protect the romex wiring in the walls so the device could well be on fire by that time).
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      I highly, highly recommend you read up on electrical theory. When you're done go de-energize a system, disconnect the ground on a GFCI outlet, then connect the live of that GFCI to whatever piece of random material you have. Or lay it on the ground directly. When you re-energize the system, the GFCI will trip or it is bad. If a GFCI was dependent on a device being grounded it'd be no better than a regular 3 prong outlet. We'd also have to ban 2-prong devices, which are probably most devices in a US home at this point.
      - bornfreddy 4y ago
        > I highly, highly recommend you read up on electrical theory. Do you have any suggestions on books, tutorials or similar?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      https://www.angi.com/articles/does-replacing-ungrounded-outlets-gfci-outlets-make-them-grounded-and-safe.htm https://www.angi.com/articles/does-replacing-ungrounded-outl... GFCI specifically works by measuring the current out = current in. To be shocked, current out ≠ current in.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        There is actually a weird way to work around that. If you stand on an insulated sheet (like a clean plastic cutting board) you wouldn't have a path to ground. If you cut open one current carrying conductor of the cord and put yourself in-series a GFCI wouldn't trip in that case. Current would still flow through the device. Enough to hurt you, but probably not enough to turn it on for most devices like a lamp. As you can guess, such an accident is nearly impossible even in the case of someone cutting through a cord accidentally.
        bombcar 4y ago
        Similarly arc fault detectors try to detect arc faults which a GFCI won’t “see”.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    It's not just a spicy track pad, it's monitor issues and (the whole premise of the post) data corruption issues
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      My apologies: I completely agree that there was definitely something wrong with OP's situation. I misunderstood your response, and thought you were objecting to KMnO4's claim that you can have a safe two-wire (no ground wire) scenario if you use GFCI.

by KMnO4 4y ago

bastawhiz 4y ago

Saying there's "nothing wrong" when there are obvious, serious hardware issues and a UPS that won't stop beeping is like saying "well there's no law that my tires can't be bald, so I'll keep driving because there's nothing wrong"

mannykannot 4y ago
I do not think the situation is the same. I believe GFCI gives excellent protection against shock even if the ground is faulty and the neutral is floating with respect to earth. (Nevertheless, I still want my home to have properly grounded three-pin sockets, even if it is implausible that it will ever make a difference.) I hope an expert can chime in, but I suspect a 'spicy' trackpad would trigger GFCI.
- SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
  GFCI at the breaker should have the ground tied to neutral, and still have grounds on the outlets (tied back to the GFCI at the breaker). Current through the ground pins will trip the GFCI, rendering the system safe. Since the ground pin should be bonded to any exposed metal (e.g. aluminum laptop case) a fault leading to a "spicy touchpad" should instead shut off the entire circuit at the breaker. Just slapping a GFCI in without that bonding won't do anything though. The ground would be floating, and thus wouldn't ever trip the GFCI. There would be no path through the GFCI for the fault current to take, making the system just as dangerous as having an ungrounded conductive case. A "double insulated" system has non-conductive material for the case of the electrical device and only needs a two-pin polarized plug. A fault of live to case won't cause danger, because the case is an insulator. A fault of live to neutral will just blow the device's internal fuse (or trip the breaker if the device has no fuse, but the breaker is just to protect the romex wiring in the walls so the device could well be on fire by that time).
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    I highly, highly recommend you read up on electrical theory. When you're done go de-energize a system, disconnect the ground on a GFCI outlet, then connect the live of that GFCI to whatever piece of random material you have. Or lay it on the ground directly. When you re-energize the system, the GFCI will trip or it is bad. If a GFCI was dependent on a device being grounded it'd be no better than a regular 3 prong outlet. We'd also have to ban 2-prong devices, which are probably most devices in a US home at this point.
    - bornfreddy 4y ago
      > I highly, highly recommend you read up on electrical theory. Do you have any suggestions on books, tutorials or similar?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    https://www.angi.com/articles/does-replacing-ungrounded-outlets-gfci-outlets-make-them-grounded-and-safe.htm https://www.angi.com/articles/does-replacing-ungrounded-outl... GFCI specifically works by measuring the current out = current in. To be shocked, current out ≠ current in.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      There is actually a weird way to work around that. If you stand on an insulated sheet (like a clean plastic cutting board) you wouldn't have a path to ground. If you cut open one current carrying conductor of the cord and put yourself in-series a GFCI wouldn't trip in that case. Current would still flow through the device. Enough to hurt you, but probably not enough to turn it on for most devices like a lamp. As you can guess, such an accident is nearly impossible even in the case of someone cutting through a cord accidentally.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Similarly arc fault detectors try to detect arc faults which a GFCI won’t “see”.
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  It's not just a spicy track pad, it's monitor issues and (the whole premise of the post) data corruption issues
  - mannykannot 4y ago
    My apologies: I completely agree that there was definitely something wrong with OP's situation. I misunderstood your response, and thought you were objecting to KMnO4's claim that you can have a safe two-wire (no ground wire) scenario if you use GFCI.