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So, like when using most websites? If you use Hacker News you're trusting Dang and the other folks running this place. If you use Facebook or Twitter, you're tr

by CM30 4y ago

So, like when using most websites? If you use Hacker News you're trusting Dang and the other folks running this place. If you use Facebook or Twitter, you're trusting Zuck, Elon and the folks working at Meta or Twitter. If you use independently run forums and community sites, you're trusting the people running those places. Self hosting your own instance is great when possible (and I definitely think it should be possible for almost all services, at least in an ideal world), but you won't be able to do much in life without trusting at least someone along the way.

irusensei 4y ago
Let’s say you are a journalist or wathever today profession that depends on reaching people. After the twitter fallout you went to this new journalist centric instance and managed to recover a good following. Months later and you had a bad intercalating with the server admin which ended up not being a level headed person as you previously thought. He deletes your account… not even a chance to use the migration tools to redirect profile.
- mariusor 4y ago
  Some of these hypotheticals are a becoming a little ridiculous. There's very little recourse if twitter bans you, or youtube bans you and you're not capable of raising a stink on HN, or what not. It's hardly any different when you're using a mastodon instance.
  - irusensei 4y ago
    Twitter won’t ban you for personal reasons. Can you vouch the same for a server admin?
    - mariusor 4y ago
      Tell that to Kathy Griffin and Jeph Jaques. And even before that, I doubt that people getting banned were considering it as "not personal".
      - irusensei 4y ago
        Did twitter TOS was ever ok with impersonating accounts? I don’t want to be in a position where I’m defending twitter but need to remind federated instances are run mostly by normal people. Having the cake and eating it and all that.
        mariusor 4y ago
        I think it's not difficult to find instances ran by ethical people or ethical organizations on the fediverse. Throwing the baby with the bath water because you theoretically can stumble upon bad admins, is in the realm of a "ridiculous hypothetical" to me.
        irusensei 4y ago
        I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear that I’m glad people are enjoying Mastodon but I take issue when everyone seems to be omitting the tradeoffs. To make things worse im being seen as some kind of concern troll for pointing it out.
        paul_funyun 4y ago
        People moving to Mastodon fall into two groups, by and large - people who like it for normative reasons, and people moving there to see what the buzz is about. The first group sees practical concerns as an obstacle to be defeated; they would say you ought to move to Mastodon regardless of technical problems or lack of utility. The second isn't defending it in offsite discussion board. In terms of utility for social networking, there's no defending Mastodon relative to a Facebook or Twitter. The small userbase is reason enough not to switch; what use is a social networking site if the people you want to interact with aren't on it? That there are so few if any people who both recommend Mastodon and don't have moral/political objections to Twitter is damning. Where are the objectors who recommend it on purely descriptive grounds? It's a bit like GNU - it's cool, but don't try to tell people it's a viable replacement for Windows.
        skybrian 4y ago
    - toofy 4y ago
      i think in many cases users are closer--node wise and influence wise--to their server admins than they were to twitter's moderation team. always? of course not. but, if this is a major concern for you, then its easy to either start your own server with a group of people or even spin up on your own. this was not possible under twitter.
    - CM30 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure they'll ban you if it's 'inconvenient' not to, like if a company raises potential legal hell, your posts get mass reported, you end up in the midst of a huge internet controversy/witchhunt, etc. A large company is no more immune to that than a small one, or a community run site would be. And at least with an individual or small company/group, you have someone to put your case to in that situation. Someone who can probably offer support and potentially lift the ban rather than the 'Get fucked' attitude of Facebook, Google, etc.
      - fragmede 4y ago
        I assure you, individuals, especially ones with the tiniest bit of power, as just as capable of telling you to "get fucked". Some of them work at Twitter or Facebook. Others run your HOA or are university professors. Or Mastodon servers. The server admin can kick you off just because they feel like it. At least with a large public platform there's the possibility of public exposure of bad behavior.
amadeuspagel 4y ago
> If you use Hacker News you're trusting Dang and the other folks running this place. I don't direct people to my HN profile. I don't rely on that for identity. I don't try to build an audience on HN. > If you use Facebook or Twitter, you're trusting Zuck, Elon and the folks working at Meta or Twitter. These are ad-funded businesses, they have a financial incentive not to ban everyone they dislike. They also have a track record.
- fsflover 4y ago
  > They also have a track record Indeed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31782952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31782952
- emaro 4y ago
  It's a common thing in the Fediverse that controversial moderation actions are discussed criticaly. People who don't like it then move onto another server. That's a feature. If I host a personal instance, it's good that I can ban anyone I want. If you host a public instance, you probably will try to enforce your rules somewhat consistently, else it's gonna be hard to earn the trust of your users.

by CM30 4y ago

irusensei 4y ago

Let’s say you are a journalist or wathever today profession that depends on reaching people. After the twitter fallout you went to this new journalist centric instance and managed to recover a good following. Months later and you had a bad intercalating with the server admin which ended up not being a level headed person as you previously thought. He deletes your account… not even a chance to use the migration tools to redirect profile.

mariusor 4y ago
Some of these hypotheticals are a becoming a little ridiculous. There's very little recourse if twitter bans you, or youtube bans you and you're not capable of raising a stink on HN, or what not. It's hardly any different when you're using a mastodon instance.
- irusensei 4y ago
  Twitter won’t ban you for personal reasons. Can you vouch the same for a server admin?
  - mariusor 4y ago
    Tell that to Kathy Griffin and Jeph Jaques. And even before that, I doubt that people getting banned were considering it as "not personal".
    - irusensei 4y ago
      Did twitter TOS was ever ok with impersonating accounts? I don’t want to be in a position where I’m defending twitter but need to remind federated instances are run mostly by normal people. Having the cake and eating it and all that.
      - mariusor 4y ago
        I think it's not difficult to find instances ran by ethical people or ethical organizations on the fediverse. Throwing the baby with the bath water because you theoretically can stumble upon bad admins, is in the realm of a "ridiculous hypothetical" to me.
        irusensei 4y ago
        I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear that I’m glad people are enjoying Mastodon but I take issue when everyone seems to be omitting the tradeoffs. To make things worse im being seen as some kind of concern troll for pointing it out.
        paul_funyun 4y ago
        People moving to Mastodon fall into two groups, by and large - people who like it for normative reasons, and people moving there to see what the buzz is about. The first group sees practical concerns as an obstacle to be defeated; they would say you ought to move to Mastodon regardless of technical problems or lack of utility. The second isn't defending it in offsite discussion board. In terms of utility for social networking, there's no defending Mastodon relative to a Facebook or Twitter. The small userbase is reason enough not to switch; what use is a social networking site if the people you want to interact with aren't on it? That there are so few if any people who both recommend Mastodon and don't have moral/political objections to Twitter is damning. Where are the objectors who recommend it on purely descriptive grounds? It's a bit like GNU - it's cool, but don't try to tell people it's a viable replacement for Windows.
        skybrian 4y ago
  - toofy 4y ago
    i think in many cases users are closer--node wise and influence wise--to their server admins than they were to twitter's moderation team. always? of course not. but, if this is a major concern for you, then its easy to either start your own server with a group of people or even spin up on your own. this was not possible under twitter.
  - CM30 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure they'll ban you if it's 'inconvenient' not to, like if a company raises potential legal hell, your posts get mass reported, you end up in the midst of a huge internet controversy/witchhunt, etc. A large company is no more immune to that than a small one, or a community run site would be. And at least with an individual or small company/group, you have someone to put your case to in that situation. Someone who can probably offer support and potentially lift the ban rather than the 'Get fucked' attitude of Facebook, Google, etc.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      I assure you, individuals, especially ones with the tiniest bit of power, as just as capable of telling you to "get fucked". Some of them work at Twitter or Facebook. Others run your HOA or are university professors. Or Mastodon servers. The server admin can kick you off just because they feel like it. At least with a large public platform there's the possibility of public exposure of bad behavior.

amadeuspagel 4y ago

> If you use Hacker News you're trusting Dang and the other folks running this place. I don't direct people to my HN profile. I don't rely on that for identity. I don't try to build an audience on HN. > If you use Facebook or Twitter, you're trusting Zuck, Elon and the folks working at Meta or Twitter. These are ad-funded businesses, they have a financial incentive not to ban everyone they dislike. They also have a track record.

fsflover 4y ago
> They also have a track record Indeed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31782952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31782952
emaro 4y ago
It's a common thing in the Fediverse that controversial moderation actions are discussed criticaly. People who don't like it then move onto another server. That's a feature. If I host a personal instance, it's good that I can ban anyone I want. If you host a public instance, you probably will try to enforce your rules somewhat consistently, else it's gonna be hard to earn the trust of your users.