4 ms·

What constitutes a scam? I'm about as much of an NFT hater as you can be. But people spend money on lots of "dumb" stuff. So why is an NFT a scam if Pokemon

What constitutes a scam? I'm about as much of an NFT hater as you can be. But people spend money on lots of "dumb" stuff. So why is an NFT a scam if Pokemon cards aren't? Both of them are artificially scarce. Both of them are mainly about buying cute pictures. And at least for a lot of the buyers, it's about speculating the price will go up in the future.

nathanaldensr 4y ago
Who says Pokemon cards aren't? ;)
dannyw 4y ago
Not a lot of people spend 10k or 100k on pokemon cards. Quantity matters.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  There’s a decent quantity of people who buy cases upon cases of collectible cards and sell the singles online.
  - RuggedPineapple 4y ago
    I strongly suspect that number is smaller then imagined. Like, a non-ironic use of the 'There are dozens of us!' line from Arrested Development.
    - williamcotton 4y ago
      It’s probably a lot bigger than outsider’s would imagine: https://www.tcgplayer.com/ https://www.tcgplayer.com/
    - cableshaft 4y ago
      You've been living under a rock and missed the Pokemon card craze in the past few years then. "Target stores around the country have pre-sunrise lines around the block, and the trading card sections look like bread aisles before a snowstorm or toilet paper aisles at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic as fans, collectors, and resellers are trying to arbitrage tins of Pokémon cards that can be resold for an easy profit."[1] "The intense demand for Pokémon trading cards, which steadily rose in recent years then rocketed up even more during the pandemic, has caused Target to temporarily suspend sales of the cards, citing a threat to the safety of customers and workers."[2] "You can probably guess what happened next. Thanks to the increased visibility of card collecting on social media, along with a surge in grading services pricing out high-value collectibles, folks are practically camping out of stores just to get the latest Pokémon card shipment. Everyone wants to find a rare card that they can flip for thousands of dollars, just like they’ve seen in the news."[3] "YouTuber Logan Paul (USA) has recently acquired a coveted PSA Grade 10 Pikachu Illustrator card following a record-breaking trade worth $5,275,000 (£3,862,424 / €4,477,146)."[4] [1]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv9dd/target-is-prepared-to-call-the-cops-on-frantic-pokemon-card-hunters https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv9dd/target-is-prepared-to... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-target.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-ta... [3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-target.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-ta... [4]: https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2022/4/logan-paul-owns-5-275-million-pokemon-card-after-record-breaking-trade-697189 https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2022/4/logan-paul-...
  - LeeroyWasHere 4y ago
    "Healing Crystals" , multi billion dollar industry, I don't see anyone complaining about the pollution of water ways, destructive mines and slave labor... But NFTs are a scam...
- Kiro 4y ago
  Have you missed streamers blowing millions of dollars on Pokémon cards live? A lot of people are indeed spending 10k or 100k or even millions on Pokémon cards (one card was sold for $5 million last year, but the real money is from people buying packs upon packs).
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  There are the people who spend figures like that on Gatcha games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-fxfuWhff0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-fxfuWhff0 I was a fan of Fate/Extra and Fate/Extella, so I was curious about Fate/Grand Order and found it very hard to run on any Android emulators, the NVIVIA Shield, AMZN Fire tablets and the other off-brand Android devices I have a huge collection of. Eventually I got it running and found the English translations make no sense at all, but it is moe-driven more than story driven and it wouldn't bother fans at all.
Kiro 4y ago
> The terms scam and malicious token are not being used identically by all researchers. For example, papers such as [44] use the terms scam and under-performing token indistinguishably, leading to inaccurate results and classifications. In the current paper, we define a malicious token as one released by a developer or a group of developers with no intrinsic value or use case. I guess the test token I put on Uniswap is a scam then.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Who decides what the use case is? Pokemon cards technically have a use case. So do crypto kitties and smooth love potion - even if it's somehow slightly "dumber".
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    The real purpose is the expectation you'll sell them to a greater fool.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      I still don't see how this doesn't apply to Pokemon cards.
- GaylordTuring 4y ago
  That’s a really strange definition of “scam”. I would simply define a scam as something where you’re promised to receive something (a certain token, a token that is backed up by something, a promise of future work, et cetera), and then don’t receive it (either now or in the future). If I simply create a meme token and sell it to someone who speculates that it will increase in value, I don’t see how that can be considered a scam.
williamcotton 4y ago
Collectible card games, crypto and meme stocks have something fundamental in common: they are fun! It’s fun for people to own and trade AMC, GameStop, Magic: The Gathering, Ethereum, NFTs, etc.
fieldcny 4y ago
You clearly aren’t as much of an NFT hater as you claim to be. The difference is when I buy a Pokémon card, I own the physical item. When I buy an NFT I buy a digital claim on some item, but you don’t actually own the item, you own the claim that you own the item.
- jkepler 4y ago
  You buy a digital claim to own a non-scarce jpeg, that anyone can copy, but only you can "own". Problem is, to enforce your ownership rights you are relying on the security of whatever the underlying block chain is. And, we know that Ethereum has changed history in the past (DAO failure in 2016), and they can do it again anytime a majority of the stakeholders think it ought to be done. I think rule-of-law property rights are more robust, or simply owning bitcoin, as its just a protocol without a group of people in change.
  - joosters 4y ago
    It's even less than that; the NFT doesn't show that you exclusively 'own' anything. Another NFT can exist that points to the same JPEG, it could be on another blockchain or even the same one. Which NFT is the 'real' one?
pyrale 4y ago
NFTs are litterally the anti pokemon cards. Pokemon cards were sold for kids to have fun, and in the end they actually are valuable, whereas NFTs were marketed as valuable, and in the end kids make fun of people buying them.
- cableshaft 4y ago
  They're only valuable due to artificial scarcity, just like NFTs. You could always copy the cards (just like you could 'right click save' an NFT image), although you wouldn't be able to play in a tournament with them, and The Pokemon Company could print more official cards of the most popular cards, but they don't because they want to fuel this craze because it makes them stupid amounts of money. And the vast number of collectors sure as hell aren't playing games with the valuable cards they collected the past few years. Logan Paul didn't spend $5 million on a Pokemon card just so he had it to play in a Pokemon tournament, especially since it's just an illustrator promo card anyway, doesn't even have a function in the game (at least as far as I can tell, I don't follow this closely, I did have a Magic The Gathering phase, though, which was the OG TCG and also has its own craziness).
nuclearnice1 4y ago
Indeed a very complex question to answer. One of the most interesting parts of the paper is the discussion of the various types of scam — simple rug pull, sell rug pull, smart contract trap door of various flavors. From their paper, I think sympathetic to your POV: > For example, it is not clear that cryptocurrencies such as Doge or Shiba have any use case or intrinsic value, but they are among the most popular meme-coins. In our framework, we say that a token has no intrinsic value or use case if the developer knows that the trading price with respect to USD will eventually be zero. In other words, a tradable malicious token in Uniswap induces a zero-sum game between the users and the developers, i.e. the incentives for the investors are not aligned with those of the token creators. Therefore, the main difference between malicious and non-malicious tokens is the developer’s intentionality towards the token. One of the main problems of these definitions is that it is unfeasible to distinguish between scam tokens and under-performing or abandoned projects without accurate off-chain data.

nathanaldensr 4y ago

Who says Pokemon cards aren't? ;)

dannyw 4y ago

Not a lot of people spend 10k or 100k on pokemon cards. Quantity matters.

williamcotton 4y ago
There’s a decent quantity of people who buy cases upon cases of collectible cards and sell the singles online.
- RuggedPineapple 4y ago
  I strongly suspect that number is smaller then imagined. Like, a non-ironic use of the 'There are dozens of us!' line from Arrested Development.
  - williamcotton 4y ago
    It’s probably a lot bigger than outsider’s would imagine: https://www.tcgplayer.com/ https://www.tcgplayer.com/
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    You've been living under a rock and missed the Pokemon card craze in the past few years then. "Target stores around the country have pre-sunrise lines around the block, and the trading card sections look like bread aisles before a snowstorm or toilet paper aisles at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic as fans, collectors, and resellers are trying to arbitrage tins of Pokémon cards that can be resold for an easy profit."[1] "The intense demand for Pokémon trading cards, which steadily rose in recent years then rocketed up even more during the pandemic, has caused Target to temporarily suspend sales of the cards, citing a threat to the safety of customers and workers."[2] "You can probably guess what happened next. Thanks to the increased visibility of card collecting on social media, along with a surge in grading services pricing out high-value collectibles, folks are practically camping out of stores just to get the latest Pokémon card shipment. Everyone wants to find a rare card that they can flip for thousands of dollars, just like they’ve seen in the news."[3] "YouTuber Logan Paul (USA) has recently acquired a coveted PSA Grade 10 Pikachu Illustrator card following a record-breaking trade worth $5,275,000 (£3,862,424 / €4,477,146)."[4] [1]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv9dd/target-is-prepared-to-call-the-cops-on-frantic-pokemon-card-hunters https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kv9dd/target-is-prepared-to... [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-target.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-ta... [3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-target.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/business/pokemon-cards-ta... [4]: https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2022/4/logan-paul-owns-5-275-million-pokemon-card-after-record-breaking-trade-697189 https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2022/4/logan-paul-...
- LeeroyWasHere 4y ago
  "Healing Crystals" , multi billion dollar industry, I don't see anyone complaining about the pollution of water ways, destructive mines and slave labor... But NFTs are a scam...
Kiro 4y ago
Have you missed streamers blowing millions of dollars on Pokémon cards live? A lot of people are indeed spending 10k or 100k or even millions on Pokémon cards (one card was sold for $5 million last year, but the real money is from people buying packs upon packs).
PaulHoule 4y ago
There are the people who spend figures like that on Gatcha games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-fxfuWhff0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-fxfuWhff0 I was a fan of Fate/Extra and Fate/Extella, so I was curious about Fate/Grand Order and found it very hard to run on any Android emulators, the NVIVIA Shield, AMZN Fire tablets and the other off-brand Android devices I have a huge collection of. Eventually I got it running and found the English translations make no sense at all, but it is moe-driven more than story driven and it wouldn't bother fans at all.

Kiro 4y ago

> The terms scam and malicious token are not being used identically by all researchers. For example, papers such as [44] use the terms scam and under-performing token indistinguishably, leading to inaccurate results and classifications. In the current paper, we define a malicious token as one released by a developer or a group of developers with no intrinsic value or use case. I guess the test token I put on Uniswap is a scam then.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Who decides what the use case is? Pokemon cards technically have a use case. So do crypto kitties and smooth love potion - even if it's somehow slightly "dumber".
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  The real purpose is the expectation you'll sell them to a greater fool.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    I still don't see how this doesn't apply to Pokemon cards.
GaylordTuring 4y ago
That’s a really strange definition of “scam”. I would simply define a scam as something where you’re promised to receive something (a certain token, a token that is backed up by something, a promise of future work, et cetera), and then don’t receive it (either now or in the future). If I simply create a meme token and sell it to someone who speculates that it will increase in value, I don’t see how that can be considered a scam.

williamcotton 4y ago

Collectible card games, crypto and meme stocks have something fundamental in common: they are fun! It’s fun for people to own and trade AMC, GameStop, Magic: The Gathering, Ethereum, NFTs, etc.

fieldcny 4y ago

You clearly aren’t as much of an NFT hater as you claim to be. The difference is when I buy a Pokémon card, I own the physical item. When I buy an NFT I buy a digital claim on some item, but you don’t actually own the item, you own the claim that you own the item.

jkepler 4y ago
You buy a digital claim to own a non-scarce jpeg, that anyone can copy, but only you can "own". Problem is, to enforce your ownership rights you are relying on the security of whatever the underlying block chain is. And, we know that Ethereum has changed history in the past (DAO failure in 2016), and they can do it again anytime a majority of the stakeholders think it ought to be done. I think rule-of-law property rights are more robust, or simply owning bitcoin, as its just a protocol without a group of people in change.
- joosters 4y ago
  It's even less than that; the NFT doesn't show that you exclusively 'own' anything. Another NFT can exist that points to the same JPEG, it could be on another blockchain or even the same one. Which NFT is the 'real' one?

pyrale 4y ago

NFTs are litterally the anti pokemon cards. Pokemon cards were sold for kids to have fun, and in the end they actually are valuable, whereas NFTs were marketed as valuable, and in the end kids make fun of people buying them.

cableshaft 4y ago
They're only valuable due to artificial scarcity, just like NFTs. You could always copy the cards (just like you could 'right click save' an NFT image), although you wouldn't be able to play in a tournament with them, and The Pokemon Company could print more official cards of the most popular cards, but they don't because they want to fuel this craze because it makes them stupid amounts of money. And the vast number of collectors sure as hell aren't playing games with the valuable cards they collected the past few years. Logan Paul didn't spend $5 million on a Pokemon card just so he had it to play in a Pokemon tournament, especially since it's just an illustrator promo card anyway, doesn't even have a function in the game (at least as far as I can tell, I don't follow this closely, I did have a Magic The Gathering phase, though, which was the OG TCG and also has its own craziness).

nuclearnice1 4y ago

Indeed a very complex question to answer. One of the most interesting parts of the paper is the discussion of the various types of scam — simple rug pull, sell rug pull, smart contract trap door of various flavors. From their paper, I think sympathetic to your POV: > For example, it is not clear that cryptocurrencies such as Doge or Shiba have any use case or intrinsic value, but they are among the most popular meme-coins. In our framework, we say that a token has no intrinsic value or use case if the developer knows that the trading price with respect to USD will eventually be zero. In other words, a tradable malicious token in Uniswap induces a zero-sum game between the users and the developers, i.e. the incentives for the investors are not aligned with those of the token creators. Therefore, the main difference between malicious and non-malicious tokens is the developer’s intentionality towards the token. One of the main problems of these definitions is that it is unfeasible to distinguish between scam tokens and under-performing or abandoned projects without accurate off-chain data.