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I think on remote it’s worth reframing the argument a little. If you’re totally pro-remote, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this formulation. Consider an earl

I think on remote it’s worth reframing the argument a little. If you’re totally pro-remote, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this formulation. Consider an early stage startup of six employees. Working full remote - everyone at home, communicating via slack and zoom, working hours roughly the same. Vs 9-6 ish hours, some flexibility, where they all come into an office. That office is a small, modern, comfortable office in a workspace. The office has a closed door, and only the team are allowed in the office. The team chat amongst themselves as needed during the day. They take breaks alone or in small groups outside of the office in the kitchen space or on the sofas in the workspace. They chat with folks from other companies. But no one from outside the team ever enters the inner office. It’s their space. Do you think remote will be more productive for the team as a whole? Do you think the startup will do better with the small office or the remote scenario? You can add an hour extra at the computer for remote (saved from commuting), but you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - realistically, delivery men (in the office scenario, deliveries go to a reception), families or pets, a bit of domestic chores, making lunch alone where no work discussions take place.

TomSwirly 4y ago
No, your vaporware office scenario still isn't going to get me to come into the office. :-) And I find it very hard to believe. When I started working in the 1980s, everybody got a cubicle, we didn't even like cubicles!, but you had walls and it was quieter and people treated it like your personal space. In my last job, I could've stood up and put my hand on seven different people's shoulders without moving my feet. So your quiet shielded office doesn't sound like anything an actual company does. > you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - No, you get a lot fewer interruptions when working remotely than in an office. Deliveries do not take an hour a day, particularly when there are two adults who can split the task. Pet interruptions take basically zero time per day because they aren't actually an interruption: I don't have to stop thinking about my problem for one second, but if I have to answer a single question about some other technical thing, I blow away my whole thought process and have to build it up again.
- luminouslow 4y ago
  Also consider my situation which is even better: - no deliveries (i only order to a dropoff or buy in person) - no pets - able to exercise and clear my mind during small breaks - able to have a homecooked meal or go to my favourite places for lunch - __not__ talking about work on breaks is actually a huge plus for me
fbdab103 4y ago
It was not clear to me from your description, but it sounds like all of the developers are crammed into a shared space? For me, that is a huge differentiator of WFH - so many companies have trash working environments. Open office or similar which look pleasant, but are horrible for concentration. I want a private space where I can close the door and have minimal visual and auditory disruptions. It does not have to be large, enough space for my monitors + chair. If I need to talk to someone else, we can do it in a different location.
scarface74 4y ago
> Consider an early stage startup of six employees A small company is then going to have to lose the flexibility of hiring from anywhere in the country and have to compete for local talent. On top of that, one competitive advantage could be over larger better paying companies (especially now that hopefully most people have wises up enough to know that “equity” in a private company is statistically meaningless) > The office has a closed door, and only the team are allowed in the office. The team chat amongst themselves as needed during the day. That doesn’t alleviate the chief complaint about in office work - loud open offices - if I still have to listen to other people talk while I’m doing deep work.

TomSwirly 4y ago

No, your vaporware office scenario still isn't going to get me to come into the office. :-) And I find it very hard to believe. When I started working in the 1980s, everybody got a cubicle, we didn't even like cubicles!, but you had walls and it was quieter and people treated it like your personal space. In my last job, I could've stood up and put my hand on seven different people's shoulders without moving my feet. So your quiet shielded office doesn't sound like anything an actual company does. > you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - No, you get a lot fewer interruptions when working remotely than in an office. Deliveries do not take an hour a day, particularly when there are two adults who can split the task. Pet interruptions take basically zero time per day because they aren't actually an interruption: I don't have to stop thinking about my problem for one second, but if I have to answer a single question about some other technical thing, I blow away my whole thought process and have to build it up again.

luminouslow 4y ago
Also consider my situation which is even better: - no deliveries (i only order to a dropoff or buy in person) - no pets - able to exercise and clear my mind during small breaks - able to have a homecooked meal or go to my favourite places for lunch - __not__ talking about work on breaks is actually a huge plus for me

fbdab103 4y ago

It was not clear to me from your description, but it sounds like all of the developers are crammed into a shared space? For me, that is a huge differentiator of WFH - so many companies have trash working environments. Open office or similar which look pleasant, but are horrible for concentration. I want a private space where I can close the door and have minimal visual and auditory disruptions. It does not have to be large, enough space for my monitors + chair. If I need to talk to someone else, we can do it in a different location.

scarface74 4y ago

> Consider an early stage startup of six employees A small company is then going to have to lose the flexibility of hiring from anywhere in the country and have to compete for local talent. On top of that, one competitive advantage could be over larger better paying companies (especially now that hopefully most people have wises up enough to know that “equity” in a private company is statistically meaningless) > The office has a closed door, and only the team are allowed in the office. The team chat amongst themselves as needed during the day. That doesn’t alleviate the chief complaint about in office work - loud open offices - if I still have to listen to other people talk while I’m doing deep work.