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> This is a human failure Is there any crypto out there without humans ? Is there an undo button to reverse the transaction? All financial systems involve hu

> This is a human failure Is there any crypto out there without humans ? Is there an undo button to reverse the transaction? All financial systems involve humans

miguelmota 4y ago
> Is there any crypto out there without humans ? What OP is referring to is that you don't need to trust people if the dex is on-chain and verifiable. FTX was a non-transparent and insolvent centralized exchange which wouldn't be possible if it was on-chain because anyone can see the funds that are available and the protocol would not allow leverage backed by non-existing collateral. > Is there an undo button to reverse the transaction? No there isn't. This is a double edge sword. > All financial systems involve humans To a degree, but centralized exchanges have more knobs controlled by humans while an on-chain dex and just be deployed once and require no human intervention. A dex can be audited fully on-chain and anyone can see if the contract has any master holder keys. The FTX fiasco is because they own all your crypto because they have the master keys. The future of finance is people being in charge of their own money and where no unexpected entity can arbitrarily inflate the supply, which is only possible with crypto.
- blueblisters 4y ago
  What foogazi was perhaps suggesting is that no financial system can work if it doesn't account for fundamental human behavior - we make mistakes and we are greedy if not held accountable "off chain". The blockchain is perfect when everyone acts in good faith and makes no mistakes. In the real world, that's not the case. Unfortunately, you need centralized institutions to regulate financial transactions, control the supply of money and enforce laws when they're broken, reverse mistakes when they happen. > The future of finance is people being in charge of their own money and where no unexpected entity can arbitrarily inflate the supply, which is only possible with crypto. This is not the future, and it'll almost certainly never happen with crypto.
  - miguelmota 4y ago
    Then what is the future? Certainly not the government going haywire with the printer. It’s impossible to trustlessly verify the exact number of US dollars in circulation, but it’s trivial to do with cryptocurrencies.
- lottin 4y ago
  Removing the possibility for human intervention doesn't make things more resilient quite the contrary. Removing human control of public policies, such as those involving the management of public resources, is downright anti-democratic and dumb. If you people intend to build a monetary system, you need to educate yourselves about monetary systems. The money supply must be managed (i.e. inflated and deflated in your unconventional parlance) in order to keep prices stable. An currency in which prices are not stable will never be used as currency by businesses because it would put them in danger of going out business due to price swings. Restricting the issuance of currency doesn't make the supply of such currency fixed. Look up how money is created by the banking system. Only a small part of the money supply is money created by central banks.
  - miguelmota 4y ago
    The money supply managed by an on-chain protocol where it’s fully open, trustless, and predictable is 100% times better then a small group of people at the treasury deciding to print money and inflate peoples savings always.
    - lottin 4y ago
      > is 100% times better I think this says it all.
imgabe 4y ago
There is the same undo button that exists for every other financial institution that commits fraud: lawsuits.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  And if you can't find the person to sue because the person is an anoymous hacker? With fiat the court will tell the banks to reverse the transactions.
  - imgabe 4y ago
    That isn’t the case here. Anyway, people get defrauded through banks all the time with advance fee fraud, 419, and other scams and banks don’t reverse those.
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      >That isn’t the case here. What do you mean? Are you saying FTX wasn't hacked by an anonymous hacker? Banks reverse transactions sometimes. It sounds like in many cases the reason they can't be reversed is because the money got converted into cryptocurrency. >Wire Fraud Recovery is Difficult, but Possible[1] >When the stolen funds arrive in the fraudster’s bank account, they engage a network of money launderers who immediately withdraw funds in cash, wire the money to a number of different accounts and/or convert it to cryptocurrency.[1] >A full recovery of lost funds was only possible in 29% of cases. In 40% of the cases, less than 10% of the funds were recovered.[2] That means that 60% of the time at least 10% of the money is recovered. >Cyber perpetrators are moving stolen funds between bank accounts and cryptocurrency wallets at a rapid rate.[2] [1] https://www.certifid.com/article/how-to-recover-from-wire-fraud https://www.certifid.com/article/how-to-recover-from-wire-fr... [2] https://blog.alta.org/2021/04/survey-title-professionals-targeted-for-wire-fraud-in-a-third-of-all-transactions.html https://blog.alta.org/2021/04/survey-title-professionals-tar...
  - miguelmota 4y ago
    If someone sends physical cash to a person across the world, is there an undo button?
hestefisk 4y ago
Spot on. Money is a social construct after all and thus subject to human fallacy.

> This is a human failure Is there any crypto out there without humans ? Is there an undo button to reverse the transaction? All financial systems involve humans

miguelmota 4y ago

> Is there any crypto out there without humans ? What OP is referring to is that you don't need to trust people if the dex is on-chain and verifiable. FTX was a non-transparent and insolvent centralized exchange which wouldn't be possible if it was on-chain because anyone can see the funds that are available and the protocol would not allow leverage backed by non-existing collateral. > Is there an undo button to reverse the transaction? No there isn't. This is a double edge sword. > All financial systems involve humans To a degree, but centralized exchanges have more knobs controlled by humans while an on-chain dex and just be deployed once and require no human intervention. A dex can be audited fully on-chain and anyone can see if the contract has any master holder keys. The FTX fiasco is because they own all your crypto because they have the master keys. The future of finance is people being in charge of their own money and where no unexpected entity can arbitrarily inflate the supply, which is only possible with crypto.

blueblisters 4y ago
What foogazi was perhaps suggesting is that no financial system can work if it doesn't account for fundamental human behavior - we make mistakes and we are greedy if not held accountable "off chain". The blockchain is perfect when everyone acts in good faith and makes no mistakes. In the real world, that's not the case. Unfortunately, you need centralized institutions to regulate financial transactions, control the supply of money and enforce laws when they're broken, reverse mistakes when they happen. > The future of finance is people being in charge of their own money and where no unexpected entity can arbitrarily inflate the supply, which is only possible with crypto. This is not the future, and it'll almost certainly never happen with crypto.
- miguelmota 4y ago
  Then what is the future? Certainly not the government going haywire with the printer. It’s impossible to trustlessly verify the exact number of US dollars in circulation, but it’s trivial to do with cryptocurrencies.
lottin 4y ago
Removing the possibility for human intervention doesn't make things more resilient quite the contrary. Removing human control of public policies, such as those involving the management of public resources, is downright anti-democratic and dumb. If you people intend to build a monetary system, you need to educate yourselves about monetary systems. The money supply must be managed (i.e. inflated and deflated in your unconventional parlance) in order to keep prices stable. An currency in which prices are not stable will never be used as currency by businesses because it would put them in danger of going out business due to price swings. Restricting the issuance of currency doesn't make the supply of such currency fixed. Look up how money is created by the banking system. Only a small part of the money supply is money created by central banks.
- miguelmota 4y ago
  The money supply managed by an on-chain protocol where it’s fully open, trustless, and predictable is 100% times better then a small group of people at the treasury deciding to print money and inflate peoples savings always.
  - lottin 4y ago
    > is 100% times better I think this says it all.

imgabe 4y ago

There is the same undo button that exists for every other financial institution that commits fraud: lawsuits.

Thorrez 4y ago
And if you can't find the person to sue because the person is an anoymous hacker? With fiat the court will tell the banks to reverse the transactions.
- imgabe 4y ago
  That isn’t the case here. Anyway, people get defrauded through banks all the time with advance fee fraud, 419, and other scams and banks don’t reverse those.
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    >That isn’t the case here. What do you mean? Are you saying FTX wasn't hacked by an anonymous hacker? Banks reverse transactions sometimes. It sounds like in many cases the reason they can't be reversed is because the money got converted into cryptocurrency. >Wire Fraud Recovery is Difficult, but Possible[1] >When the stolen funds arrive in the fraudster’s bank account, they engage a network of money launderers who immediately withdraw funds in cash, wire the money to a number of different accounts and/or convert it to cryptocurrency.[1] >A full recovery of lost funds was only possible in 29% of cases. In 40% of the cases, less than 10% of the funds were recovered.[2] That means that 60% of the time at least 10% of the money is recovered. >Cyber perpetrators are moving stolen funds between bank accounts and cryptocurrency wallets at a rapid rate.[2] [1] https://www.certifid.com/article/how-to-recover-from-wire-fraud https://www.certifid.com/article/how-to-recover-from-wire-fr... [2] https://blog.alta.org/2021/04/survey-title-professionals-targeted-for-wire-fraud-in-a-third-of-all-transactions.html https://blog.alta.org/2021/04/survey-title-professionals-tar...
- miguelmota 4y ago
  If someone sends physical cash to a person across the world, is there an undo button?

hestefisk 4y ago

Spot on. Money is a social construct after all and thus subject to human fallacy.