6 ms·

> but many CEOs will tend to believe that things will go better with everyone back in the office Many of us SWEs believe the same!

harryVic 4y ago
SWEs that want to force everyone back to office have no life or a personality outside of their job.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  For real. Make some friends outside of work. Or enjoy time with your family. Or take time to make a family.
  - llampx 4y ago
    We are still talking about working during work, right? Or are you playing with your kids and having beers with your friends while you work? It is a strawman argument to claim that people who want to go to the office have no social life. It is in fact easier to claim that "only antisocial people want to hide at home like a hermit with their webcam shut off."
    - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
      When work and social life are the same, you never need to leave work. I've seen too many buy into that just to lose their entire social lives over a job change, and also have horrible life satisfaction over the long term. So yes and no. Depends on how you define work.
      - llampx 4y ago
        Yes if you have no life outside of work then it can't be good. However I still don't know if that's a common enough problem to solve for by making everyone work from home. I think the more common issue would be lack of collaboration and ties to the company and colleagues when working fully remote.
    - ProZsolt 4y ago
      No, but I have lunch and coffee break with my girlfriend.
      - llampx 4y ago
        Hope your wife doesn't mind lmao gottem
lytedev 4y ago
Everyone in the office? Really? All the time?
- klyrs 4y ago
  No, only when you're not stuck in traffic
anotherrandom 4y ago
What makes you think this? I haven't observed any advantages to an office beyond overexposing the company to real estate (not really an advantage) - there is nothing I could do in person that I haven't been able to do faster in MS Teams (and better - now I have a written record and recording of everything). Another advantage of remote is that nobody ruins my train of thought by tapping me on the shoulder and asking stupid questions like "hey did you get that email." Best of all, no stupid pressure to go to lunch with anyone
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I think brainstorming, discovery, and discussion type of tasks work much better in-person, maybe 5-10x better (driven in part by a small percentage that are thousands of times better). Delivery works great remotely, probably better for me and many.
  - ProZsolt 4y ago
    If you want to mimic the in–office fast paced decision making then yes in–person works better. If you adopt a written RFC based slower decision making where people have time to fully articulate their thoughts and have time to respond to those comments then it not worst, just different. If the house is burning and we need to come up with a solution now the first works way better. There is a reason why the military have war rooms. But for long term changes the second can be as good if not better.
    - aliciawilliams 4y ago
- sour-taste 4y ago
  I think the reality is some people do better remote, some better in office. There's no one size fits all solution. I hated my time working from home, but it sounds like you enjoy it. There's no perfect solution for companies here except to cater to individual preferences, or mandate one at the risk of angering some employees
Clent 4y ago
Many or a few? Most software engineers find themselves most effective in work from home. This breaks in favor at 3:4 or higher. The software engineers that want to work in office are the odd-balls. I am interested in the break down when one factors in whatever concept of '10x developers' -- which do the most productive of us prefer?
- Skunkleton 4y ago
  Nit: Many can still be a minority.
  - rendaw 4y ago
    It can also be understood as the majority, per wiktionary > the generality; the common herd GP was countering the possibility that GGP meant the above.
- jmt_ 4y ago
  I just want to be able to choose which I want on a day-by-day basis. Some days I am much more productive in the office because I need to, say, communicate with a bunch of people or there's some sort of back and forth that needs to occur. Or I just need to get out of the house for a bit. Other days, I just want to stay home and spend the time focusing on something in particular without being bothered. But I need both to have both to do my job effectively. However, I work at a small company and am the primary software engineer which changes the dynamic a bit.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Some days I am much more productive in the office because I need to, say, communicate with a bunch of people But on that day all of those people might've chosen to work from home so you sit all alone in the office. The hybrid solution only really works well if the office days are the same for everyone.
    - justahuman74 4y ago
arpa 4y ago
yeah, no, dude. Fuck the mandatory office the same way fuck the meetings that could have been an email.
flippinburgers 4y ago
Um many? Not me. Not any of the engineers I have talked to, which makes those who want to return the minority.
randomsearch 4y ago
I think on remote it’s worth reframing the argument a little. If you’re totally pro-remote, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this formulation. Consider an early stage startup of six employees. Working full remote - everyone at home, communicating via slack and zoom, working hours roughly the same. Vs 9-6 ish hours, some flexibility, where they all come into an office. That office is a small, modern, comfortable office in a workspace. The office has a closed door, and only the team are allowed in the office. The team chat amongst themselves as needed during the day. They take breaks alone or in small groups outside of the office in the kitchen space or on the sofas in the workspace. They chat with folks from other companies. But no one from outside the team ever enters the inner office. It’s their space. Do you think remote will be more productive for the team as a whole? Do you think the startup will do better with the small office or the remote scenario? You can add an hour extra at the computer for remote (saved from commuting), but you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - realistically, delivery men (in the office scenario, deliveries go to a reception), families or pets, a bit of domestic chores, making lunch alone where no work discussions take place.
- TomSwirly 4y ago
  No, your vaporware office scenario still isn't going to get me to come into the office. :-) And I find it very hard to believe. When I started working in the 1980s, everybody got a cubicle, we didn't even like cubicles!, but you had walls and it was quieter and people treated it like your personal space. In my last job, I could've stood up and put my hand on seven different people's shoulders without moving my feet. So your quiet shielded office doesn't sound like anything an actual company does. > you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - No, you get a lot fewer interruptions when working remotely than in an office. Deliveries do not take an hour a day, particularly when there are two adults who can split the task. Pet interruptions take basically zero time per day because they aren't actually an interruption: I don't have to stop thinking about my problem for one second, but if I have to answer a single question about some other technical thing, I blow away my whole thought process and have to build it up again.
  - luminouslow 4y ago

harryVic 4y ago

SWEs that want to force everyone back to office have no life or a personality outside of their job.

ThunderSizzle 4y ago
For real. Make some friends outside of work. Or enjoy time with your family. Or take time to make a family.
- llampx 4y ago
  We are still talking about working during work, right? Or are you playing with your kids and having beers with your friends while you work? It is a strawman argument to claim that people who want to go to the office have no social life. It is in fact easier to claim that "only antisocial people want to hide at home like a hermit with their webcam shut off."
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    When work and social life are the same, you never need to leave work. I've seen too many buy into that just to lose their entire social lives over a job change, and also have horrible life satisfaction over the long term. So yes and no. Depends on how you define work.
    - llampx 4y ago
      Yes if you have no life outside of work then it can't be good. However I still don't know if that's a common enough problem to solve for by making everyone work from home. I think the more common issue would be lack of collaboration and ties to the company and colleagues when working fully remote.
  - ProZsolt 4y ago
    No, but I have lunch and coffee break with my girlfriend.
    - llampx 4y ago
      Hope your wife doesn't mind lmao gottem

lytedev 4y ago

Everyone in the office? Really? All the time?

klyrs 4y ago
No, only when you're not stuck in traffic

anotherrandom 4y ago

What makes you think this? I haven't observed any advantages to an office beyond overexposing the company to real estate (not really an advantage) - there is nothing I could do in person that I haven't been able to do faster in MS Teams (and better - now I have a written record and recording of everything). Another advantage of remote is that nobody ruins my train of thought by tapping me on the shoulder and asking stupid questions like "hey did you get that email." Best of all, no stupid pressure to go to lunch with anyone

sokoloff 4y ago
I think brainstorming, discovery, and discussion type of tasks work much better in-person, maybe 5-10x better (driven in part by a small percentage that are thousands of times better). Delivery works great remotely, probably better for me and many.
- ProZsolt 4y ago
  If you want to mimic the in–office fast paced decision making then yes in–person works better. If you adopt a written RFC based slower decision making where people have time to fully articulate their thoughts and have time to respond to those comments then it not worst, just different. If the house is burning and we need to come up with a solution now the first works way better. There is a reason why the military have war rooms. But for long term changes the second can be as good if not better.
  - aliciawilliams 4y ago
sour-taste 4y ago
I think the reality is some people do better remote, some better in office. There's no one size fits all solution. I hated my time working from home, but it sounds like you enjoy it. There's no perfect solution for companies here except to cater to individual preferences, or mandate one at the risk of angering some employees

Clent 4y ago

Many or a few? Most software engineers find themselves most effective in work from home. This breaks in favor at 3:4 or higher. The software engineers that want to work in office are the odd-balls. I am interested in the break down when one factors in whatever concept of '10x developers' -- which do the most productive of us prefer?

Skunkleton 4y ago
Nit: Many can still be a minority.
- rendaw 4y ago
  It can also be understood as the majority, per wiktionary > the generality; the common herd GP was countering the possibility that GGP meant the above.
jmt_ 4y ago
I just want to be able to choose which I want on a day-by-day basis. Some days I am much more productive in the office because I need to, say, communicate with a bunch of people or there's some sort of back and forth that needs to occur. Or I just need to get out of the house for a bit. Other days, I just want to stay home and spend the time focusing on something in particular without being bothered. But I need both to have both to do my job effectively. However, I work at a small company and am the primary software engineer which changes the dynamic a bit.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Some days I am much more productive in the office because I need to, say, communicate with a bunch of people But on that day all of those people might've chosen to work from home so you sit all alone in the office. The hybrid solution only really works well if the office days are the same for everyone.
  - justahuman74 4y ago

arpa 4y ago

yeah, no, dude. Fuck the mandatory office the same way fuck the meetings that could have been an email.

flippinburgers 4y ago

Um many? Not me. Not any of the engineers I have talked to, which makes those who want to return the minority.

randomsearch 4y ago

I think on remote it’s worth reframing the argument a little. If you’re totally pro-remote, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this formulation. Consider an early stage startup of six employees. Working full remote - everyone at home, communicating via slack and zoom, working hours roughly the same. Vs 9-6 ish hours, some flexibility, where they all come into an office. That office is a small, modern, comfortable office in a workspace. The office has a closed door, and only the team are allowed in the office. The team chat amongst themselves as needed during the day. They take breaks alone or in small groups outside of the office in the kitchen space or on the sofas in the workspace. They chat with folks from other companies. But no one from outside the team ever enters the inner office. It’s their space. Do you think remote will be more productive for the team as a whole? Do you think the startup will do better with the small office or the remote scenario? You can add an hour extra at the computer for remote (saved from commuting), but you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - realistically, delivery men (in the office scenario, deliveries go to a reception), families or pets, a bit of domestic chores, making lunch alone where no work discussions take place.

TomSwirly 4y ago
No, your vaporware office scenario still isn't going to get me to come into the office. :-) And I find it very hard to believe. When I started working in the 1980s, everybody got a cubicle, we didn't even like cubicles!, but you had walls and it was quieter and people treated it like your personal space. In my last job, I could've stood up and put my hand on seven different people's shoulders without moving my feet. So your quiet shielded office doesn't sound like anything an actual company does. > you’ll need to surrender quite a bit of that to interruptions when remote - No, you get a lot fewer interruptions when working remotely than in an office. Deliveries do not take an hour a day, particularly when there are two adults who can split the task. Pet interruptions take basically zero time per day because they aren't actually an interruption: I don't have to stop thinking about my problem for one second, but if I have to answer a single question about some other technical thing, I blow away my whole thought process and have to build it up again.
- luminouslow 4y ago