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It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global s

It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale. Truly disheartening are the financially disenfranchised (and what I believe) young voices for whom any system would be better than the current. It's to the extent that many think that attacking capitalism itself is the answer. There is an incredible amount of fraud in crypto and it should be identified, stamped out and vigorously prosecuted. But there is also genuine genius at work solving difficult problems for everyone's benefit. It is terrible that people are losing money so easily and is a reminder that crypto isn't solving the problem of fools being parted from their money. Presumably that's what laws and regulations do.

tartoran 4y ago
People are cheerleading the ponzi-scheme part of it.
jakelazaroff 4y ago
The issue is that we don't believe the crypto industry seeks to improve the financial system, on any scale. It's not just that so many of them have turned out to be scammers — it's that the industry as a whole has not put in any work to prevent that, and often has actively worked to prevent any sort of guardrails.
- jjulius 4y ago
  Right. In many of the "OMG What Happened to SBF?" articles this week, it's mentioned over and over that SBF ran afoul of many of his industry counterparts because he cozied up to Washington and pushed for regulation. I don't know how someone can feel comfortable handing their money over to anyone who essentially says, "I don't want there to be any rules around what I can do with this, and people who can punish me for abusing this need to stay away". That's INSANE to me. I don't doubt that there are a few companies in the space that are trying to do some genuine good. But I'd wager that I can count them on one hand. Edit: And if someone's going to say, "This industry has potential, don't cheer it's demise," then show me the potential. Show me the companies doing that good stuff, because we're not seeing it.
- psychlops 4y ago
  This is a very interesting point. Traditional banking would certainly be able to come together (and often do) to serve their own interests by restricting entrants. It's not clear to me how open source projects like a bitcoin might prevent scammers from cloning the source and opening a discord channel to people leading to an eventual rugpull. The success of bitcoin has led many to think that duplicating network effects is the path to easy riches. I guess they are not wrong.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    We’re not just talking about open source, though. Crypto is propped up by billions of dollars from some of the most powerful people on the planet. The fact that funds like Sequoia and a16z are showering crypto companies like FTX with money — while doing minimal due diligence and without taking any meaningful action to fight scammers — is incredibly revealing. But even insofar as we are talking about “little guys”, so to speak, one very simple thing they could do would be to actively call out people and projects that are scams.
    - psychlops 4y ago
      I imagine the ability of those in crypto, big or little, to identify or pursue criminality will remain limited. The problem hasn't been solved in traditional finance. SBF testified in front of Congress. I have no attachment to FTX and didn't even know its name a week ago, but it seems pretty legit knowing that one fact. As for Tether, a few moments of reflection on how a stablecoin stays stable in crypto should be enough for people to worry. I won't even go into the trust placed in exchanges. But there is evidently an endless supply of fiat that will continue to go into these scams. Perhaps a better focus would be on pursuing negligence on the part of the founders and investors such as Sequoia and a16z. Frequently these scams are only obvious after they fail and are merely unprovable suspicions before.
jjulius 4y ago
>It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale. This kind of feels like a disingenuous description of what's happening, as though it's willfully ignorant of what's clearly being discussed here. People are cheerleading the demise of the snake oil and grifting that is insanely prevalent in a new, unregulated industry. >There is an incredible amount of fraud in crypto and it should be identified, stamped out and vigorously prosecuted. So you're on board with us then! :p >But there is also genuine genius at work solving difficult problems for everyone's benefit. Yep. Good for them. Fuck everyone else taking part in the grift. I'm certain you'll find plenty of people "cheerleading the demise of the industry" who share this viewpoint. > It is terrible that people are losing money so easily and is a reminder that crypto isn't solving the problem of fools being parted from their money. Presumably that's what laws and regulations do. At the risk of starting a much larger discussion that I am wholly unqualified to take part in, that's a pretty damning comment to make in regards to DeFi. Doesn't bode well for it's future if a lack of regulation is just going to push people away from adopting it out of fear of losing money. Edit: If you want "crypto" or DeFi to succeed, you should be cheering with us when these assholes fall.
- psychlops 4y ago
  > If you want "crypto" or DeFi to succeed, you should be cheering with us when these assholes fall. Oh, I am. I was taking issue with the ubiquitous shortsighted comments accompanying crypto threads that want to see crypto fail at every cost. To your point, I don't necessarily want "crypto" to succeed, but innovation that is best for everyone. The financial system is certainly ripe for renewal and could be gutted. I'm not a fan of DeFi. While I might have missed something there as there is a lot of work being done, what I've seen simply reinvents the ongoing financialization of everything.
wmf 4y ago
seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale They've been at this for a decade and they're not actually improving it. The purpose of crypto is what it does: take money from the middle class and give it to billionaires. young voices for whom any system would be better than the current No, there are many possible systems that are far worse. If people believed this they'd move to Somalia to seek their fortune.
jfengel 4y ago
You should be cheering for the demise of any project that undercuts the goal of establishing a safe, well-considered, functional alternative. They're not cheering for it to fail. They're cheering that the long-standing failure is being remedied, removing yet another scammer from the cryptocurrency space. They don't get to win for solving difficult problems. They win if they present a complete solution. "We did some remarkable math but didn't fix the sheer quantity of fraud" is not a solution.
acdha 4y ago
> It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale. Truly disheartening are the financially disenfranchised (and what I believe) young voices for whom any system would be better than the current. Look at it this way: the scammers are not doing that, at all. In fact, they are making it less likely that anyone will do so because they are turning people off to the field categorically, making it hard for an honest business to get customers, and dramatically increasing the likelihood of strict regulation. Those young people who you're concerned about are in many cases losing or about to lose what assets they have, and they're going to be angry about it — do you think they'd give any time of day to another company in that sector which sounds just like the people who defrauded them? If you're serious about that goal, you should be on the frontline attacking these companies and especially making it super clear who you think is doing it right. When the dotcom crisis hit, yeah, a ton of never-had-a-chance companies failed but the web was just fine because there were a ton of people delivering real value to organizations all around the world. If there's “genuine genius at work solving difficult problems for everyone's benefit”, ignore the crooks being criticized and focus on directing attention to those geniuses because they've been massively outshadowed.
- psychlops 4y ago
  Indeed. You are absolutely correct. To be clear, I'm no fan of Tether. This is just another anti-crypto thread where I had time to post some thoughts. I suppose I've gotten jaded frontlining anything crypto. When I speak about it to people, mostly they are interesting in what's going to the moon. I have little patience for those conversations. Actually, I can't think of more than a handful that actually want to know the technology or what a pre-mine is and so on before investing.
  - acdha 4y ago
    It reminds me a lot of the 1998-2000 period where people were looking for hot stocks but not doing any research beyond Internet forums and seeing whether a number had gone up. Some of the people caught out deserved mockery but many were well-marketed to and far out of their league. I’m thinking of a sales guy I knew who mentioned one morning that he’d “invested” all of their wedding money and was now far below water.
nullc 4y ago
People are cheering the crypto scams and ponzis going away. Those are the real threat to the potential benefits, not people being critical on the internet.
Ekaros 4y ago
Many see that crypto isn't actually needed for that. We have already implemented many ways to do it without crypto. Think of Africa, China and India. What is actually needed is stability around the world which allows financial systems to operate. And crypto really has done nothing for this goal. Only positive side is to allow moving currency bit cheaper in some cases.

tartoran 4y ago

People are cheerleading the ponzi-scheme part of it.

jakelazaroff 4y ago

The issue is that we don't believe the crypto industry seeks to improve the financial system, on any scale. It's not just that so many of them have turned out to be scammers — it's that the industry as a whole has not put in any work to prevent that, and often has actively worked to prevent any sort of guardrails.

jjulius 4y ago
Right. In many of the "OMG What Happened to SBF?" articles this week, it's mentioned over and over that SBF ran afoul of many of his industry counterparts because he cozied up to Washington and pushed for regulation. I don't know how someone can feel comfortable handing their money over to anyone who essentially says, "I don't want there to be any rules around what I can do with this, and people who can punish me for abusing this need to stay away". That's INSANE to me. I don't doubt that there are a few companies in the space that are trying to do some genuine good. But I'd wager that I can count them on one hand. Edit: And if someone's going to say, "This industry has potential, don't cheer it's demise," then show me the potential. Show me the companies doing that good stuff, because we're not seeing it.
psychlops 4y ago
This is a very interesting point. Traditional banking would certainly be able to come together (and often do) to serve their own interests by restricting entrants. It's not clear to me how open source projects like a bitcoin might prevent scammers from cloning the source and opening a discord channel to people leading to an eventual rugpull. The success of bitcoin has led many to think that duplicating network effects is the path to easy riches. I guess they are not wrong.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  We’re not just talking about open source, though. Crypto is propped up by billions of dollars from some of the most powerful people on the planet. The fact that funds like Sequoia and a16z are showering crypto companies like FTX with money — while doing minimal due diligence and without taking any meaningful action to fight scammers — is incredibly revealing. But even insofar as we are talking about “little guys”, so to speak, one very simple thing they could do would be to actively call out people and projects that are scams.
  - psychlops 4y ago
    I imagine the ability of those in crypto, big or little, to identify or pursue criminality will remain limited. The problem hasn't been solved in traditional finance. SBF testified in front of Congress. I have no attachment to FTX and didn't even know its name a week ago, but it seems pretty legit knowing that one fact. As for Tether, a few moments of reflection on how a stablecoin stays stable in crypto should be enough for people to worry. I won't even go into the trust placed in exchanges. But there is evidently an endless supply of fiat that will continue to go into these scams. Perhaps a better focus would be on pursuing negligence on the part of the founders and investors such as Sequoia and a16z. Frequently these scams are only obvious after they fail and are merely unprovable suspicions before.

jjulius 4y ago

>It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale. This kind of feels like a disingenuous description of what's happening, as though it's willfully ignorant of what's clearly being discussed here. People are cheerleading the demise of the snake oil and grifting that is insanely prevalent in a new, unregulated industry. >There is an incredible amount of fraud in crypto and it should be identified, stamped out and vigorously prosecuted. So you're on board with us then! :p >But there is also genuine genius at work solving difficult problems for everyone's benefit. Yep. Good for them. Fuck everyone else taking part in the grift. I'm certain you'll find plenty of people "cheerleading the demise of the industry" who share this viewpoint. > It is terrible that people are losing money so easily and is a reminder that crypto isn't solving the problem of fools being parted from their money. Presumably that's what laws and regulations do. At the risk of starting a much larger discussion that I am wholly unqualified to take part in, that's a pretty damning comment to make in regards to DeFi. Doesn't bode well for it's future if a lack of regulation is just going to push people away from adopting it out of fear of losing money. Edit: If you want "crypto" or DeFi to succeed, you should be cheering with us when these assholes fall.

psychlops 4y ago
> If you want "crypto" or DeFi to succeed, you should be cheering with us when these assholes fall. Oh, I am. I was taking issue with the ubiquitous shortsighted comments accompanying crypto threads that want to see crypto fail at every cost. To your point, I don't necessarily want "crypto" to succeed, but innovation that is best for everyone. The financial system is certainly ripe for renewal and could be gutted. I'm not a fan of DeFi. While I might have missed something there as there is a lot of work being done, what I've seen simply reinvents the ongoing financialization of everything.

wmf 4y ago

seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale They've been at this for a decade and they're not actually improving it. The purpose of crypto is what it does: take money from the middle class and give it to billionaires. young voices for whom any system would be better than the current No, there are many possible systems that are far worse. If people believed this they'd move to Somalia to seek their fortune.

jfengel 4y ago

You should be cheering for the demise of any project that undercuts the goal of establishing a safe, well-considered, functional alternative. They're not cheering for it to fail. They're cheering that the long-standing failure is being remedied, removing yet another scammer from the cryptocurrency space. They don't get to win for solving difficult problems. They win if they present a complete solution. "We did some remarkable math but didn't fix the sheer quantity of fraud" is not a solution.

acdha 4y ago

> It's depressing to me that there is such a vocal group of people cheerleading the demise of an industry that seeks to improve the financial system on a global scale. Truly disheartening are the financially disenfranchised (and what I believe) young voices for whom any system would be better than the current. Look at it this way: the scammers are not doing that, at all. In fact, they are making it less likely that anyone will do so because they are turning people off to the field categorically, making it hard for an honest business to get customers, and dramatically increasing the likelihood of strict regulation. Those young people who you're concerned about are in many cases losing or about to lose what assets they have, and they're going to be angry about it — do you think they'd give any time of day to another company in that sector which sounds just like the people who defrauded them? If you're serious about that goal, you should be on the frontline attacking these companies and especially making it super clear who you think is doing it right. When the dotcom crisis hit, yeah, a ton of never-had-a-chance companies failed but the web was just fine because there were a ton of people delivering real value to organizations all around the world. If there's “genuine genius at work solving difficult problems for everyone's benefit”, ignore the crooks being criticized and focus on directing attention to those geniuses because they've been massively outshadowed.

psychlops 4y ago
Indeed. You are absolutely correct. To be clear, I'm no fan of Tether. This is just another anti-crypto thread where I had time to post some thoughts. I suppose I've gotten jaded frontlining anything crypto. When I speak about it to people, mostly they are interesting in what's going to the moon. I have little patience for those conversations. Actually, I can't think of more than a handful that actually want to know the technology or what a pre-mine is and so on before investing.
- acdha 4y ago
  It reminds me a lot of the 1998-2000 period where people were looking for hot stocks but not doing any research beyond Internet forums and seeing whether a number had gone up. Some of the people caught out deserved mockery but many were well-marketed to and far out of their league. I’m thinking of a sales guy I knew who mentioned one morning that he’d “invested” all of their wedding money and was now far below water.

nullc 4y ago

People are cheering the crypto scams and ponzis going away. Those are the real threat to the potential benefits, not people being critical on the internet.

Ekaros 4y ago

Many see that crypto isn't actually needed for that. We have already implemented many ways to do it without crypto. Think of Africa, China and India. What is actually needed is stability around the world which allows financial systems to operate. And crypto really has done nothing for this goal. Only positive side is to allow moving currency bit cheaper in some cases.