8 ms·

I was looking into algea/spirulina for B12, but found some sources indicating it is not a bioavailable form of B12, and also prevents real B12 from being absorb

I was looking into algea/spirulina for B12, but found some sources indicating it is not a bioavailable form of B12, and also prevents real B12 from being absorbed. I'd be interested to know any counter research to this. > almost all algae revealed vitamin B12 analogues instead of the real thing. Analogues are not only ineffective, but also potentially dangerous. Most researchers have consequently dismissed algae as a B12 source and recommend natural B12 supplements as a safe alternative > In order to properly understand the discussion about the B12 content of algae, it is important to first take a closer look at analogues. Also known as pseudo B12, analogues are molecules which are so chemically similar to real B12 that they bond to the same transport molecule. In contrast, however, they have no vitamin effect on the body whatsoever. This is detrimental to health, as only real B12 that is bound to this specific transport molecule can be used by the body. https://www.b12-vitamin.com/algae/ https://www.b12-vitamin.com/algae/

coinbasetwwa 4y ago
Yep. People need meat.
- manmal 4y ago
  B12 absorption is finicky, and meats contain rather small amounts. Injections and sublinguals are actually better at increasing levels than meat.
  - zmaurelius 4y ago
    Organ meats such as beef liver provide a significant amount of B12. If you are just eating muscle meat, then you will have to eat a lot.
    - manmal 4y ago
      Excess liver consumption is a risk factor for vitamin A toxicity though, and the B12 amount varies wildly. Red meat consumption also increases cancer risk. It’s safer to take supplements from a reputable source.
    - tomcam 4y ago
      Challenge accepted
- newman555 4y ago
  For B12? You do know that animals don’t produce B12, but microorganisms (that can be found in soil and untreated water) and that farmed animals eat B12 supplemented food? So no, people don’t need meat. Not for B12, or for proteins or for iron or for anything else. Do people want to eat meat? That’s a different story.
  - knaekhoved 4y ago
    - cauefcr 4y ago
      Have you been keeping logs of all the vegans you meet to come to this conclusion? This sounds like anecdotal evidence at best.
      - knaekhoved 4y ago
    - delecti 4y ago
      Because a lot of vegans are leftist nerds, who are often scrawny. Plenty of them are fat too though. Source: I'm a leftist nerd, carrying a few too many pounds, who doesn't eat meat.
  - coinbasetwwa 4y ago
    If you want to turbo optimize your life and give up caffeine so your body can absorb non-heme iron be my guest. It’s far simpler to eat as omnivores as humans were meant to be, especially with so many factors on the scale against your favor.
    - mathieuh 4y ago
      For me it makes no difference whether I consume animal products or not. I’ve consumed no animal products in about five months now, and aside from needing to spend a bit longer looking at labels when I first started, now I know what I’m doing I spend no more or less time on food. I take a big multivitamin in the evening and that’s it.
- CaptainNegative 4y ago
  They also need Hi-C Flashin' Fruit Punch because rib eye is low in ascorbic acid.
  - version_five 4y ago
    You can get that from eating whale skin, much tastier and healthier
    - dmcgee 4y ago
      Oh man, I ate whale skin in Greenland. It was hairy and tasted like a decomposing car tire. You must have had the good kind.
      - version_five 4y ago
        > tasted like a decomposing car tire Theres probably lots of cheese that you could say the same about that is well enjoyed. That said, I don't know if the whale skin I had could be called "good" to my taste. It was beluga I think, from the Canadian arctic. What was striking though was how sour it was and the strong taste of ascorbic acid. With a very chewy texture.
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  Guess what? Farm animals need B12 supplements. So why not just take B12 supplements ourselves? Cut out the middleman and as a bonus lower stress on our biosphere and reduce our carbon footprint.
- ben_w 4y ago
  I'm existence proof to the contrary.
  - wwfzyn 4y ago
    It's technically correct that we need some animal products. The big one I can think of is crude oil. It's from animals long dead and also used to make plastics. Not sure if we count insects as animal products but the work of bees helps pollinate our crops. We don't eat the bees but we do take advantage of them and breed them to go around and pollinate crops.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      > crude oil. It's from animals IIRC that's mostly from plants and algae, and definitely can be substituted with things made purely from plants and algae. However, I was replying to someone who said specifically "meat", and crude oil isn't meat. > Not sure if we count insects as animal products but the work of bees helps pollinate our crops. We don't eat the bees but we do take advantage of them and breed them to go around and pollinate crops. If you're that expansive, humans are also animals, and we also rely on each other's labour.
      - wwfzyn 4y ago
        Can't argue with those points. I went too far and ended up leaving the field. :-)
- dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  Very true, but you know idealism, denial and delusion is a thing. Many will literally die rather than come to terms with the 'fact' that every human (without exception) needs some animal products.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Why are you so certain? To the best of my knowledge, the last time I consumed any meat (which is what you're agreeing with to begin, even though you later say the much more general "animal products" which includes milk), was on a 2015 trip to Kenya, where the cook somehow randomised the ingredients in everyone's sandwiches (I asked for a "cheese and pesto" sandwich, my cheese was switched with someone else's chicken), and the time before that was 2009, where my vegetarian lasagna was switched with someone else's beef lasagna. Even with those accidents, twice in 13 years doesn't seem like a "you're delusional if you think you can go without" kind of a thing. Also, full on vegans are a thing. I'm not one (cheese is too tempting), but it's not crazy like breatharians or whatever.
    - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
      >Why are you so certain? I feel obliged respond. I'll try and put a short useful response. ( It becomes a little tiring to give an elaborate, well thought out response when one repeatedly encounters what one sees as irrationality). - I have _never_ see a vegan thrive (health wise) in the long run. - Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese. - May 'vegans' lie outright - There are lot of ex-vegans out there, some of them who were truly committed. Search for them on the web and you will find them. - https://www.beyondveg.com/ https://www.beyondveg.com/ has information from people who probably tried being vegans from the sixties. Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        > Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese. Don't call me a vegan. I'm vegetarian. That means choosing no meat, no more, no less. It does rather look like you are unfamiliar with the difference, both from this response and your previous comment replying specifically to meat. > Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of. I'm older than I think you think I am. And both my grandfathers died before I was born.
manmal 4y ago
Why not just take B12 produced with microbes (= most supplements)? Those are considered vegan. Trying to get B12 from algae sounds unnecessarily complicated, considering our B12 has in all of our history been of microbial origin. But I also wouldn’t shun algae just because they occupy some B12 transporters. There’s all kinds of metabolic tradeoffs with every kind of food, and we are designed to tolerate that. Most metabolic pathways are 4-5x redundant IIRC.
- dsp_person 4y ago
  Oh I remember now I was actually looking at spirulina for omega 3. Seemed hard to find numbers, but one source said 331mg of EPA per gram of Spirulina platensis (https://www.ripublication.com/ijac16/ijacv12n4_05.pdf https://www.ripublication.com/ijac16/ijacv12n4_05.pdf). Was considering what it would be like to eat like 6 grams of spirulina for 2g of EPA, versus that in one teaspoon of fish oil (high EPA type). But got stuck on the B12 blocking stuff. I wonder if your point is true that there's enough redundancy it doesn't matter. It would be nice if it was easier/cheaper to get bloodwork to do some experiments with this kind of stuff.
  - manmal 4y ago
    Interesting about the omega 3. Maybe the oil is also less likely to get rancid if it’s still bound to the plant. Re testing, the article you linked has another article linked on the same site: https://www.b12-vitamin.com/analogues/ https://www.b12-vitamin.com/analogues/ They mention MMA testing here (you could get one as part of the Organic Acids Test at „The Great Plains“ lab for example), but that’s quite expensive ($299 right now). It’s maybe the most accurate B12 test out there. Technically, it’s a test by proxy. If you are currently serum B12 deficient, then there’s probably not that much to worry about, because the B12 analogues in algae also won’t be absorbed properly (maybe due to a lack of intrinsic factor). Supplemental methyl- and adenosyl-B12 don’t have that problem.
dopa42365 4y ago
Isn't the recommended B12 dosage per day like 4 micrograms? Less than 1.5 milligrams in a year. Looking at the cost of Cyanocobalamin, it appears to be around $1000/kg. https://www.pharmacompass.com/active-pharmaceutical-ingredients/cyanocobalamin https://www.pharmacompass.com/active-pharmaceutical-ingredie... Complete B12 supplementation is going to set you back literally 0.1 cents per year. All B12 you'll ever take in your whole life is not even worth 10 measly cents. Just some supplement for thought to consider before changing your diet for that.
- every 4y ago
  But don't forget that some older individuals, such as myself, lose the ability to easily absorb B12. And a B12 deficiency is not a pleasant thing. Somewhat along the lines of the onset of Parkinson's or ALS. Consequently I take a single tablet every morning that provides over 200,000% of the recommended daily dose...
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  Well, if you go in on bulk B12 with some friends at $1k/kg, I guess you could limit it to 10¢. In reality, more accessible supplements run me closer to $5/month. I'm fine with that. Risking a deficiency isn't worth $5/month, and I don't have an efficient or viable alternative.
xyzzy123 4y ago
These researchers seem to think Spirulina improves the health of b12 deprived mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31502254/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31502254/ - the result looks pretty solid to me. The same group tested Chlorella in another paper, same result.

coinbasetwwa 4y ago

Yep. People need meat.

manmal 4y ago
B12 absorption is finicky, and meats contain rather small amounts. Injections and sublinguals are actually better at increasing levels than meat.
- zmaurelius 4y ago
  Organ meats such as beef liver provide a significant amount of B12. If you are just eating muscle meat, then you will have to eat a lot.
  - manmal 4y ago
    Excess liver consumption is a risk factor for vitamin A toxicity though, and the B12 amount varies wildly. Red meat consumption also increases cancer risk. It’s safer to take supplements from a reputable source.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    Challenge accepted
newman555 4y ago
For B12? You do know that animals don’t produce B12, but microorganisms (that can be found in soil and untreated water) and that farmed animals eat B12 supplemented food? So no, people don’t need meat. Not for B12, or for proteins or for iron or for anything else. Do people want to eat meat? That’s a different story.
- knaekhoved 4y ago
  - cauefcr 4y ago
    Have you been keeping logs of all the vegans you meet to come to this conclusion? This sounds like anecdotal evidence at best.
    - knaekhoved 4y ago
  - delecti 4y ago
    Because a lot of vegans are leftist nerds, who are often scrawny. Plenty of them are fat too though. Source: I'm a leftist nerd, carrying a few too many pounds, who doesn't eat meat.
- coinbasetwwa 4y ago
  If you want to turbo optimize your life and give up caffeine so your body can absorb non-heme iron be my guest. It’s far simpler to eat as omnivores as humans were meant to be, especially with so many factors on the scale against your favor.
  - mathieuh 4y ago
    For me it makes no difference whether I consume animal products or not. I’ve consumed no animal products in about five months now, and aside from needing to spend a bit longer looking at labels when I first started, now I know what I’m doing I spend no more or less time on food. I take a big multivitamin in the evening and that’s it.
CaptainNegative 4y ago
They also need Hi-C Flashin' Fruit Punch because rib eye is low in ascorbic acid.
- version_five 4y ago
  You can get that from eating whale skin, much tastier and healthier
  - dmcgee 4y ago
    Oh man, I ate whale skin in Greenland. It was hairy and tasted like a decomposing car tire. You must have had the good kind.
    - version_five 4y ago
      > tasted like a decomposing car tire Theres probably lots of cheese that you could say the same about that is well enjoyed. That said, I don't know if the whale skin I had could be called "good" to my taste. It was beluga I think, from the Canadian arctic. What was striking though was how sour it was and the strong taste of ascorbic acid. With a very chewy texture.
uxcolumbo 4y ago
Guess what? Farm animals need B12 supplements. So why not just take B12 supplements ourselves? Cut out the middleman and as a bonus lower stress on our biosphere and reduce our carbon footprint.
ben_w 4y ago
I'm existence proof to the contrary.
- wwfzyn 4y ago
  It's technically correct that we need some animal products. The big one I can think of is crude oil. It's from animals long dead and also used to make plastics. Not sure if we count insects as animal products but the work of bees helps pollinate our crops. We don't eat the bees but we do take advantage of them and breed them to go around and pollinate crops.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    > crude oil. It's from animals IIRC that's mostly from plants and algae, and definitely can be substituted with things made purely from plants and algae. However, I was replying to someone who said specifically "meat", and crude oil isn't meat. > Not sure if we count insects as animal products but the work of bees helps pollinate our crops. We don't eat the bees but we do take advantage of them and breed them to go around and pollinate crops. If you're that expansive, humans are also animals, and we also rely on each other's labour.
    - wwfzyn 4y ago
      Can't argue with those points. I went too far and ended up leaving the field. :-)
dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
Very true, but you know idealism, denial and delusion is a thing. Many will literally die rather than come to terms with the 'fact' that every human (without exception) needs some animal products.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Why are you so certain? To the best of my knowledge, the last time I consumed any meat (which is what you're agreeing with to begin, even though you later say the much more general "animal products" which includes milk), was on a 2015 trip to Kenya, where the cook somehow randomised the ingredients in everyone's sandwiches (I asked for a "cheese and pesto" sandwich, my cheese was switched with someone else's chicken), and the time before that was 2009, where my vegetarian lasagna was switched with someone else's beef lasagna. Even with those accidents, twice in 13 years doesn't seem like a "you're delusional if you think you can go without" kind of a thing. Also, full on vegans are a thing. I'm not one (cheese is too tempting), but it's not crazy like breatharians or whatever.
  - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
    >Why are you so certain? I feel obliged respond. I'll try and put a short useful response. ( It becomes a little tiring to give an elaborate, well thought out response when one repeatedly encounters what one sees as irrationality). - I have _never_ see a vegan thrive (health wise) in the long run. - Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese. - May 'vegans' lie outright - There are lot of ex-vegans out there, some of them who were truly committed. Search for them on the web and you will find them. - https://www.beyondveg.com/ https://www.beyondveg.com/ has information from people who probably tried being vegans from the sixties. Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      > Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese. Don't call me a vegan. I'm vegetarian. That means choosing no meat, no more, no less. It does rather look like you are unfamiliar with the difference, both from this response and your previous comment replying specifically to meat. > Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of. I'm older than I think you think I am. And both my grandfathers died before I was born.

manmal 4y ago

Why not just take B12 produced with microbes (= most supplements)? Those are considered vegan. Trying to get B12 from algae sounds unnecessarily complicated, considering our B12 has in all of our history been of microbial origin. But I also wouldn’t shun algae just because they occupy some B12 transporters. There’s all kinds of metabolic tradeoffs with every kind of food, and we are designed to tolerate that. Most metabolic pathways are 4-5x redundant IIRC.

dsp_person 4y ago
Oh I remember now I was actually looking at spirulina for omega 3. Seemed hard to find numbers, but one source said 331mg of EPA per gram of Spirulina platensis (https://www.ripublication.com/ijac16/ijacv12n4_05.pdf https://www.ripublication.com/ijac16/ijacv12n4_05.pdf). Was considering what it would be like to eat like 6 grams of spirulina for 2g of EPA, versus that in one teaspoon of fish oil (high EPA type). But got stuck on the B12 blocking stuff. I wonder if your point is true that there's enough redundancy it doesn't matter. It would be nice if it was easier/cheaper to get bloodwork to do some experiments with this kind of stuff.
- manmal 4y ago
  Interesting about the omega 3. Maybe the oil is also less likely to get rancid if it’s still bound to the plant. Re testing, the article you linked has another article linked on the same site: https://www.b12-vitamin.com/analogues/ https://www.b12-vitamin.com/analogues/ They mention MMA testing here (you could get one as part of the Organic Acids Test at „The Great Plains“ lab for example), but that’s quite expensive ($299 right now). It’s maybe the most accurate B12 test out there. Technically, it’s a test by proxy. If you are currently serum B12 deficient, then there’s probably not that much to worry about, because the B12 analogues in algae also won’t be absorbed properly (maybe due to a lack of intrinsic factor). Supplemental methyl- and adenosyl-B12 don’t have that problem.

dopa42365 4y ago

Isn't the recommended B12 dosage per day like 4 micrograms? Less than 1.5 milligrams in a year. Looking at the cost of Cyanocobalamin, it appears to be around $1000/kg. https://www.pharmacompass.com/active-pharmaceutical-ingredients/cyanocobalamin https://www.pharmacompass.com/active-pharmaceutical-ingredie... Complete B12 supplementation is going to set you back literally 0.1 cents per year. All B12 you'll ever take in your whole life is not even worth 10 measly cents. Just some supplement for thought to consider before changing your diet for that.

every 4y ago
But don't forget that some older individuals, such as myself, lose the ability to easily absorb B12. And a B12 deficiency is not a pleasant thing. Somewhat along the lines of the onset of Parkinson's or ALS. Consequently I take a single tablet every morning that provides over 200,000% of the recommended daily dose...
steve_adams_86 4y ago
Well, if you go in on bulk B12 with some friends at $1k/kg, I guess you could limit it to 10¢. In reality, more accessible supplements run me closer to $5/month. I'm fine with that. Risking a deficiency isn't worth $5/month, and I don't have an efficient or viable alternative.

xyzzy123 4y ago

These researchers seem to think Spirulina improves the health of b12 deprived mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31502254/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31502254/ - the result looks pretty solid to me. The same group tested Chlorella in another paper, same result.