5 ms·

For those wondering about why there was no mention of union... https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/01/08/meme-weeding-unions-and-construction-costs/ https:

by pcurve 4y ago

For those wondering about why there was no mention of union... https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/01/08/meme-weeding-unions-and-construction-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/01/08/meme-weeding-u... apparently, even in non union states, these project costs are ridiculous.

mikeyouse 4y ago
Right - and in union-heavy countries like Germany and France, the costs are often much lower than in the US. There could be something to the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here, but it's clearly not the root cause.
- legitster 4y ago
  > the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here An underrated topic. All unions are not made alike, and the laws dictating European unions are very, very different than those in the US.
  - wobbly_bush 4y ago
    There is very little discussion around this underrated topic. In India, the places where unions have a strong presence have lost a lot of industries. They have become notorious for getting any work done in those places, as some unions have morphed into gangs. This is not to imply anything about the benefit/tradeoff of unions in other countries.
- beastman82 4y ago
  It is not at all clear. Union contracts vary widely state to state, country to country. I don't think you can make this claim.
- robomartin 4y ago
  > There could be something to the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here, but it's clearly not the root cause. Yes. US unions are very different from European unions. Without getting into the details, US unions can be very destructive, while European unions are far more wholistic or cooperative. To be clear, this is not about union members. It's about union leadership and the "mafia" how they do business. Union members are along for the ride, are sold entire narratives they have to support and can end-up losing big. Entire industries have been seriously damaged by our unions. Source: I was in a union for about a decade. In addition to this, I have had this conversation with members of other unions, some of them as post-mortems after years of union damage caused job losses to China and, ultimately, the companies they worked for to shut down. Solution? I can't think of a single simple idea. These are engrained cultural things. People rarely wake up to the reality of what's going on until the are suffering, take the time to think it through and ultimately realize where the pain came from.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    You'd have to replace the companies with something like a co-op: from my experience with EU unions they're much more like what we would call a co-op; they're working with the business and the customer for the best possible solution all-around. Of course, in the US it's also become a huge political thing.
    - eric-hu 4y ago
      For the US, there may be historical cultural reasons as well. Some unions were actually run by mafias. These are the same kinds of groups that would go around neighborhoods asking for “protection” money. If you don’t pay, you don’t get protection from their henchmen ruining your store.
      - crooked-v 4y ago
        Of course, the US also has a history of anti-union forces effectively being armed paramilities who would break up even the lightest of strikes or labor movements with public violence.
    - wongarsu 4y ago
      In Europe it's generally understood that it has to be a mutually beneficial relationship. Once it becomes parasitic, the parasite risks killing the host (no matter if it's the company having their employees walk out, or the employees/union forcing through demands that make their employer uncompetitive and close down). That's harder to implement in a more individualistic society like the US, and the history of violent union busting surely didn't help either.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Probably because unions in France and Germany aren't as powerful as US construction unions. Also in the EU there is internal competition between countries for construction projects that brings costs down overall. Unions in Germany jacking up your costs? Maybe there's a construction company in Poland or Czechia willing to do it for less. In Austria I see many construction sites are full with companies from Slovenia.
  - thescriptkiddie 4y ago
    Unions in France and Germany are much more powerful than in the US.
    - legitster 4y ago
      Uhhhh. Probably not though. US labor laws focuses on all or nothing union control of a workplace. And once they have control, they get a lot of legal power. Europe has a different model where unions do not have to have any sort of majority vote to be recognized. As such, membership tends to be more fluid. So the unions themselves have less specific control, but the unions can be larger, and be more recognized without as much antagonization. Also, US unions have a lot of power over healthcare in the US. Usually being a function of the state in Europe, there's a lot less cost at stake when dealing with a European union. So I think it's largely an apples to oranges comparison.
      - rhaway84773 4y ago
        It is an Apples to Oranges comparison. But when was the last time a major public U.S. union went on strike? Whereas French railway workers do it all the time. If you’re talking about power along a single axis that alone makes the French unions significantly more powerful.
        ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >But when was the last time a major public U.S. union went on strike? If unions get their way, why would they need to go on strike? The French go on strike because their unions don't always get their way.
legitster 4y ago
I agree that unions are probably not a universal cause for costs, but I'm not sure I buy into this 100%. The author is equating right-to-work with union representation which isn't accurate. And different unions can incur different types of costs on different projects.

by pcurve 4y ago

mikeyouse 4y ago

Right - and in union-heavy countries like Germany and France, the costs are often much lower than in the US. There could be something to the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here, but it's clearly not the root cause.

legitster 4y ago
> the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here An underrated topic. All unions are not made alike, and the laws dictating European unions are very, very different than those in the US.
- wobbly_bush 4y ago
  There is very little discussion around this underrated topic. In India, the places where unions have a strong presence have lost a lot of industries. They have become notorious for getting any work done in those places, as some unions have morphed into gangs. This is not to imply anything about the benefit/tradeoff of unions in other countries.
beastman82 4y ago
It is not at all clear. Union contracts vary widely state to state, country to country. I don't think you can make this claim.
robomartin 4y ago
> There could be something to the structure or organization of US unions that impacts things here, but it's clearly not the root cause. Yes. US unions are very different from European unions. Without getting into the details, US unions can be very destructive, while European unions are far more wholistic or cooperative. To be clear, this is not about union members. It's about union leadership and the "mafia" how they do business. Union members are along for the ride, are sold entire narratives they have to support and can end-up losing big. Entire industries have been seriously damaged by our unions. Source: I was in a union for about a decade. In addition to this, I have had this conversation with members of other unions, some of them as post-mortems after years of union damage caused job losses to China and, ultimately, the companies they worked for to shut down. Solution? I can't think of a single simple idea. These are engrained cultural things. People rarely wake up to the reality of what's going on until the are suffering, take the time to think it through and ultimately realize where the pain came from.
- bombcar 4y ago
  You'd have to replace the companies with something like a co-op: from my experience with EU unions they're much more like what we would call a co-op; they're working with the business and the customer for the best possible solution all-around. Of course, in the US it's also become a huge political thing.
  - eric-hu 4y ago
    For the US, there may be historical cultural reasons as well. Some unions were actually run by mafias. These are the same kinds of groups that would go around neighborhoods asking for “protection” money. If you don’t pay, you don’t get protection from their henchmen ruining your store.
    - crooked-v 4y ago
      Of course, the US also has a history of anti-union forces effectively being armed paramilities who would break up even the lightest of strikes or labor movements with public violence.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    In Europe it's generally understood that it has to be a mutually beneficial relationship. Once it becomes parasitic, the parasite risks killing the host (no matter if it's the company having their employees walk out, or the employees/union forcing through demands that make their employer uncompetitive and close down). That's harder to implement in a more individualistic society like the US, and the history of violent union busting surely didn't help either.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Probably because unions in France and Germany aren't as powerful as US construction unions. Also in the EU there is internal competition between countries for construction projects that brings costs down overall. Unions in Germany jacking up your costs? Maybe there's a construction company in Poland or Czechia willing to do it for less. In Austria I see many construction sites are full with companies from Slovenia.
- thescriptkiddie 4y ago
  Unions in France and Germany are much more powerful than in the US.
  - legitster 4y ago
    Uhhhh. Probably not though. US labor laws focuses on all or nothing union control of a workplace. And once they have control, they get a lot of legal power. Europe has a different model where unions do not have to have any sort of majority vote to be recognized. As such, membership tends to be more fluid. So the unions themselves have less specific control, but the unions can be larger, and be more recognized without as much antagonization. Also, US unions have a lot of power over healthcare in the US. Usually being a function of the state in Europe, there's a lot less cost at stake when dealing with a European union. So I think it's largely an apples to oranges comparison.
    - rhaway84773 4y ago
      It is an Apples to Oranges comparison. But when was the last time a major public U.S. union went on strike? Whereas French railway workers do it all the time. If you’re talking about power along a single axis that alone makes the French unions significantly more powerful.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >But when was the last time a major public U.S. union went on strike? If unions get their way, why would they need to go on strike? The French go on strike because their unions don't always get their way.

legitster 4y ago

I agree that unions are probably not a universal cause for costs, but I'm not sure I buy into this 100%. The author is equating right-to-work with union representation which isn't accurate. And different unions can incur different types of costs on different projects.