4 ms·

I think they thought they were honest and doing things properly, and didn't realize that their holding of FTT was making them as bad as the other frauds before.

I think they thought they were honest and doing things properly, and didn't realize that their holding of FTT was making them as bad as the other frauds before. I think these ouroboros are complex enough that even main players don't necessarily understand the position they've put themselves in.

lazide 4y ago
If by 'they thought they were honest and doing things properly' you think the same for Madoff, then oof. Actions and results matter. Intentions can easily be bullshit and delusion. If someone is committing multi-billion dollar fraud, there is a line that was crossed a LONG time ago.
- adastra22 4y ago
  I read him as saying they thought they were doing honest things.
  - lazide 4y ago
    I was referring to the same miscreants as the poster was. It’s only plausible to a certain point that they were unknowingly bad actors. They’d have to willingly be deluding themselves. No one commits multi-billion dollar fraud accidentally. They’d have to turn a blind eye to something any reasonable person would consider a ‘are we the baddies’ moment. Or two. Or dozens. As to if it’s documented? One can hope, but I’m not holding my breath. I’m sure there have been many shredder parties (or digital equivalents) happening in many places since the news broke.
    - adastra22 4y ago
      Oh you’d be surprised. I think most people are capable of this kind of fraud. It’s human nature to judge others by their actions, but judge yourself by your intentions.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Capable, yeah. Capable without knowing they’re doing something wrong? Yeah, no. Most people cross that threshold well before a million bucks. You can tell by the shape of the lies that are inevitably told. Someone who actually thinks they’re doing something ok won’t go to such lengths to hide important details, or omit specific things that are inevitably omitted. And in this case, why not just update the TOS to be clear what they’re doing? Because they know it’s wrong. What you’re talking about is willful delusion. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, etc.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Yeah and the point is no one sane would seriously say Madoff thought he was being honest. They’re making an analogy between Madoff and SBF being similar/the same.
coffeebeqn 4y ago
Let’s not treat senior management and owners of a company that has gambled away billions of dollars of customers (and investors) money as kids. They should get jail time from what I’ve read so far. They were either criminally stupid or did this on purpose. It really wasn’t that complex. This isn’t even close to 2008 complexity since this was all happening within one organization With the same owner SBF.
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  "Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by greed."
  - HPMOR 4y ago
    “Never assume malice by that which could be explained by incompetence.” As a caveat, however, SBF did work at Jane Street and graduated Summa Cum Laude from MIT with a Physics degree, so maybe this quote does not apply.
    - SantalBlush 4y ago
      Right, which is exactly why I took that quote--which is overused by HN crowd--and changed it to fit the context. But you went and added it anyway. I won't assume any malice on your part.
    - trollerator23 4y ago
      Nitpick: There is no such thing as Summa Cum Laude at MIT. Rankings and GPAs are not published, so he just graduated with a physics degree, period.
      - totalZero 4y ago
        Always gives me pause when I hear people say that someone graduated with honors at MIT, even when it's Tony Stark: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/87387a75-dde7-44ec-bc87-66f4e207fa8d https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/87387a75-dde7-44ec-bc87-66f4e20... Or this guy from Why Him: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bbc047f6-7417-4eb3-b4fe-064f75d5a0e3 https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bbc047f6-7417-4eb3-b4fe-064f75d...
AYBABTME 4y ago
[2022-11-13] If I may follow up on myself: I didn't know anything about this situation and just commented randomly. It seems obvious a few days later that it was straight up fraud.

lazide 4y ago

If by 'they thought they were honest and doing things properly' you think the same for Madoff, then oof. Actions and results matter. Intentions can easily be bullshit and delusion. If someone is committing multi-billion dollar fraud, there is a line that was crossed a LONG time ago.

adastra22 4y ago
I read him as saying they thought they were doing honest things.
- lazide 4y ago
  I was referring to the same miscreants as the poster was. It’s only plausible to a certain point that they were unknowingly bad actors. They’d have to willingly be deluding themselves. No one commits multi-billion dollar fraud accidentally. They’d have to turn a blind eye to something any reasonable person would consider a ‘are we the baddies’ moment. Or two. Or dozens. As to if it’s documented? One can hope, but I’m not holding my breath. I’m sure there have been many shredder parties (or digital equivalents) happening in many places since the news broke.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    Oh you’d be surprised. I think most people are capable of this kind of fraud. It’s human nature to judge others by their actions, but judge yourself by your intentions.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Capable, yeah. Capable without knowing they’re doing something wrong? Yeah, no. Most people cross that threshold well before a million bucks. You can tell by the shape of the lies that are inevitably told. Someone who actually thinks they’re doing something ok won’t go to such lengths to hide important details, or omit specific things that are inevitably omitted. And in this case, why not just update the TOS to be clear what they’re doing? Because they know it’s wrong. What you’re talking about is willful delusion. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, etc.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Yeah and the point is no one sane would seriously say Madoff thought he was being honest. They’re making an analogy between Madoff and SBF being similar/the same.

coffeebeqn 4y ago

Let’s not treat senior management and owners of a company that has gambled away billions of dollars of customers (and investors) money as kids. They should get jail time from what I’ve read so far. They were either criminally stupid or did this on purpose. It really wasn’t that complex. This isn’t even close to 2008 complexity since this was all happening within one organization With the same owner SBF.

SantalBlush 4y ago
"Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by greed."
- HPMOR 4y ago
  “Never assume malice by that which could be explained by incompetence.” As a caveat, however, SBF did work at Jane Street and graduated Summa Cum Laude from MIT with a Physics degree, so maybe this quote does not apply.
  - SantalBlush 4y ago
    Right, which is exactly why I took that quote--which is overused by HN crowd--and changed it to fit the context. But you went and added it anyway. I won't assume any malice on your part.
  - trollerator23 4y ago
    Nitpick: There is no such thing as Summa Cum Laude at MIT. Rankings and GPAs are not published, so he just graduated with a physics degree, period.
    - totalZero 4y ago
      Always gives me pause when I hear people say that someone graduated with honors at MIT, even when it's Tony Stark: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/87387a75-dde7-44ec-bc87-66f4e207fa8d https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/87387a75-dde7-44ec-bc87-66f4e20... Or this guy from Why Him: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bbc047f6-7417-4eb3-b4fe-064f75d5a0e3 https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bbc047f6-7417-4eb3-b4fe-064f75d...

AYBABTME 4y ago

[2022-11-13] If I may follow up on myself: I didn't know anything about this situation and just commented randomly. It seems obvious a few days later that it was straight up fraud.