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Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euro

Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. But when we think of extraction, we think of fossil fuels like coal and gas. Unfortunately, lithium also falls under the same umbrella, despite paving the way for an electric future.. Lithium can be described as the non-renewable mineral that makes renewable energy possible - often touted as the next oil.

VBprogrammer 4y ago
But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries. Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  The recycling processes and costs are astronomical and environmentally damaging. https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-recyclable https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-... As lithium batteries degrade they become more unstable and fire prone. I'm sure you're familiar with what happens to your laptop battery as it ages - shorter and shorter life, swelling etc.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    You're thinking of a particular kind of battery with a flammable electrolyte. Other popular chemistries (LFP being the most obvious) aren't anywhere near as fire-prone. And of course, laptop batteries get worked -much- harder and treated to much harsher environments than any EV battery.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      Teslas use LFP batteries https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77 https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77
      - philipkglass 4y ago
        That video is from January 2021. Tesla didn't start using LFP batteries in their non-Chinese vehicles before October 2021: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quarterly_Update_SI1AKE.pdf https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quart... (page 7)
nicoburns 4y ago
Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. Lithium is extremely hard to recycle.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. 50/50, actually.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      There is still some steel in the core load bearing areas of modern vehicle but they are predominantly alloys. I'd say around 60% alloys, 35% plastics and 5% steel would be an average
      - tuatoru 4y ago
        Let's all just make up numbers when we could find them with 15 seconds' effort. https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-sustainability-decarbonization/material-components-car/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportat... Ferrous metals 65%.
        olivermarks 4y ago
        1 Ferrous metal blends with other materials are increasingly the main components of vehicles. MMC etc. Where body shops used to straighten collision damage on jigs to pull out damaged steel chassis, bodyshells etc the modern composites are very hard to repair, containing all sorts of materials including steel, alloys, plastics etc. They are also hard to recycle. 2 How old is that graphic? 3 Manners
kortilla 4y ago
> Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. Are you trying to argue that using fossil fuels is better for the environment? It’s not clear if you’re using this opportunity to complain about mining in general or if you’re arguing that we are better off with petrol cars.
- Choco31415 4y ago
  They’re directly quoting text from the article. See the section “ Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment?”.
- asdff 4y ago
  If we develop a proper biofuel then we are going to wish we still had carbon powered cars imo. The issue with carbon fuel is that it gets put into the atmosphere and not recaptured, thus warming the planet and disturbing ecology. Once a method is used to capture this carbon organically, however, then carbon just becomes a transient used delivery device and a store for solar energy that powers the underlying photosynthesis to restructure atmospheric carbon into solids. A tree trunk or a pound of green algae becomes a fungible unit of energy. Everything changes.
tuatoru 4y ago
> Chile is already being ruined. By copper mining. Lithium is unnoticeable in comparison.

VBprogrammer 4y ago

But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries. Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.

olivermarks 4y ago
The recycling processes and costs are astronomical and environmentally damaging. https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-recyclable https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-... As lithium batteries degrade they become more unstable and fire prone. I'm sure you're familiar with what happens to your laptop battery as it ages - shorter and shorter life, swelling etc.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  You're thinking of a particular kind of battery with a flammable electrolyte. Other popular chemistries (LFP being the most obvious) aren't anywhere near as fire-prone. And of course, laptop batteries get worked -much- harder and treated to much harsher environments than any EV battery.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    Teslas use LFP batteries https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77 https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77
    - philipkglass 4y ago
      That video is from January 2021. Tesla didn't start using LFP batteries in their non-Chinese vehicles before October 2021: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quarterly_Update_SI1AKE.pdf https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quart... (page 7)

nicoburns 4y ago

Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.

olivermarks 4y ago
Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. Lithium is extremely hard to recycle.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. 50/50, actually.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    There is still some steel in the core load bearing areas of modern vehicle but they are predominantly alloys. I'd say around 60% alloys, 35% plastics and 5% steel would be an average
    - tuatoru 4y ago
      Let's all just make up numbers when we could find them with 15 seconds' effort. https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-sustainability-decarbonization/material-components-car/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportat... Ferrous metals 65%.
      - olivermarks 4y ago
        1 Ferrous metal blends with other materials are increasingly the main components of vehicles. MMC etc. Where body shops used to straighten collision damage on jigs to pull out damaged steel chassis, bodyshells etc the modern composites are very hard to repair, containing all sorts of materials including steel, alloys, plastics etc. They are also hard to recycle. 2 How old is that graphic? 3 Manners

kortilla 4y ago

> Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. Are you trying to argue that using fossil fuels is better for the environment? It’s not clear if you’re using this opportunity to complain about mining in general or if you’re arguing that we are better off with petrol cars.

Choco31415 4y ago
They’re directly quoting text from the article. See the section “ Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment?”.
asdff 4y ago
If we develop a proper biofuel then we are going to wish we still had carbon powered cars imo. The issue with carbon fuel is that it gets put into the atmosphere and not recaptured, thus warming the planet and disturbing ecology. Once a method is used to capture this carbon organically, however, then carbon just becomes a transient used delivery device and a store for solar energy that powers the underlying photosynthesis to restructure atmospheric carbon into solids. A tree trunk or a pound of green algae becomes a fungible unit of energy. Everything changes.

tuatoru 4y ago

> Chile is already being ruined. By copper mining. Lithium is unnoticeable in comparison.