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I'll take this response as a "No, I've never served in the military." You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of '

by least 4y ago

I'll take this response as a "No, I've never served in the military." You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of 'cheating.' At least give an example of what loyalty means to you, because it's certainly not going along with the actual definition of it, which does not require any sort of just cause or rational thought attached to it. > The “drilling” you referred to is more comparable to brain washing than loyalty bound to reasoning. Yes, and? It's training soldiers to be loyal to each other and to their superiors which are both important factors in battle readiness. You need to be able to follow orders in extreme situations and you need to have each other's back. This is taught to all SMs going through any training in practically any military in the world. > Yes, loyalty is an [ideal] frequently never found, but to call someone loyal because they signed a contract or because they know what will happen if the report those willfully breaking the law, to me is not loyalty. There's a thing called "unlawful orders" in the military. If a superior officer/NCO issues one, it is your duty to disobey it. This is easier said than done, of course. In either case, this is tangential to my point. What even is loyalty to you?

O__________O 4y ago
>> What even is loyalty to you? To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. >> You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of cheating. Here’s a paper that showed veterans report extramarital sexual relationships at 2x the rate of nonveterans: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X12460510?journalCode=jfia https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X1246051... How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? Beyond that, under UCMJ adultery is a crime, even if retired, yet what percentage of active duty and veterans are charged? How frequently are those aware of adultery in military subject to UCMJ actions?
- least 4y ago
  > To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. In my best effort to interpret what you mean, I'd assume you mean that people only be loyal to reason? That's a fine ideal to have but it's got nothing to do with loyalty, which has to do with a person's consistent allegiance towards something. A person can be loyal to one thing and not loyal to another. > How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? You would explain it as they do in the paper you linked, which is that there are many extenuating circumstances surrounding veteran marriages that make it more vulnerable to higher rates of adultery. That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. But it also carries several caveats, like how the results of their analyses cannot be generalized towards the current veteran population, which is significantly different from their data, which dates back to 1992.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    >> You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. Reasoning to me is a belief, as such, it’s possible to be loyal or for that matter, non-loyal to reasoning. For example, beliefs of religious fundamentalists in my opinion are based on the word of god, not reasoning. Further, even when it would be easier to bend my reasoning to fit narrative that’s better for myself, I strive to reason objectively regardless of its impact on myself. To me, that’s loyalty that’s not born of force, manipulative tactics, and is a valid example of loyalty without error. In the not to distant past, people were killed for their belief in reasoning over the word of god, even today it still happens. >> That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. Taken to an extreme, top level military personnel cheating is potentially national security threat and even at enlisted level, systemic amounts of adultery, given it’s a crime under UCMJ, create an environment that’s only likely to produce similar illegal behavior and culture of covertly enabling it. As I said in my original comment, in my experience these issues are common among all militaries, and I am not aware of a solution. That said, in my opinion, it is an issue, like the increased levels of suicide within military that if addressed would have a significant impact on a military being more fit for combat that those who have been unable to address these issues.
    - least 4y ago
      > Reasoning to me is a belief, as such, it’s possible to be loyal or for that matter, non-loyal to reasoning. For example, beliefs of religious fundamentalists in my opinion are based on the word of god, not reasoning. Further, even when it would be easier to bend my reasoning to fit narrative that’s better for myself, I strive to reason objectively regardless of its impact on myself. To me, that’s loyalty that’s not born of force, manipulative tactics, and is a valid example of loyalty without error. In the not to distant past, people were killed for their belief in reasoning over the word of god, even today it still happens. You being "loyal to reason" is just describing your values and has nothing to do with loyalty. You can't redefine the word just because you want to say that the military is full of disloyal people. > As I said in my original comment, in my experience these issues are common among all militaries, and I am not aware of a solution. What experience are you speaking of? You don't seem to have any experience that's at all related to these issues; at least you've not shared any. > That said, in my opinion, it is an issue, like the increased levels of suicide within military that if addressed would have a significant impact on a military being more fit for combat that those who have been unable to address these issues. They are addressed in the U.S. military. Suicide prevention programs and Mental Health programs are very big things in the U.S. military. I also would not describe it as a "culture of suicide" just because it occurs at a higher rate.

by least 4y ago

O__________O 4y ago

>> What even is loyalty to you? To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. >> You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of cheating. Here’s a paper that showed veterans report extramarital sexual relationships at 2x the rate of nonveterans: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X12460510?journalCode=jfia https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X1246051... How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? Beyond that, under UCMJ adultery is a crime, even if retired, yet what percentage of active duty and veterans are charged? How frequently are those aware of adultery in military subject to UCMJ actions?

least 4y ago
> To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. In my best effort to interpret what you mean, I'd assume you mean that people only be loyal to reason? That's a fine ideal to have but it's got nothing to do with loyalty, which has to do with a person's consistent allegiance towards something. A person can be loyal to one thing and not loyal to another. > How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? You would explain it as they do in the paper you linked, which is that there are many extenuating circumstances surrounding veteran marriages that make it more vulnerable to higher rates of adultery. That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. But it also carries several caveats, like how the results of their analyses cannot be generalized towards the current veteran population, which is significantly different from their data, which dates back to 1992.
- O__________O 4y ago
  >> You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. Reasoning to me is a belief, as such, it’s possible to be loyal or for that matter, non-loyal to reasoning. For example, beliefs of religious fundamentalists in my opinion are based on the word of god, not reasoning. Further, even when it would be easier to bend my reasoning to fit narrative that’s better for myself, I strive to reason objectively regardless of its impact on myself. To me, that’s loyalty that’s not born of force, manipulative tactics, and is a valid example of loyalty without error. In the not to distant past, people were killed for their belief in reasoning over the word of god, even today it still happens. >> That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. Taken to an extreme, top level military personnel cheating is potentially national security threat and even at enlisted level, systemic amounts of adultery, given it’s a crime under UCMJ, create an environment that’s only likely to produce similar illegal behavior and culture of covertly enabling it. As I said in my original comment, in my experience these issues are common among all militaries, and I am not aware of a solution. That said, in my opinion, it is an issue, like the increased levels of suicide within military that if addressed would have a significant impact on a military being more fit for combat that those who have been unable to address these issues.
  - least 4y ago
    > Reasoning to me is a belief, as such, it’s possible to be loyal or for that matter, non-loyal to reasoning. For example, beliefs of religious fundamentalists in my opinion are based on the word of god, not reasoning. Further, even when it would be easier to bend my reasoning to fit narrative that’s better for myself, I strive to reason objectively regardless of its impact on myself. To me, that’s loyalty that’s not born of force, manipulative tactics, and is a valid example of loyalty without error. In the not to distant past, people were killed for their belief in reasoning over the word of god, even today it still happens. You being "loyal to reason" is just describing your values and has nothing to do with loyalty. You can't redefine the word just because you want to say that the military is full of disloyal people. > As I said in my original comment, in my experience these issues are common among all militaries, and I am not aware of a solution. What experience are you speaking of? You don't seem to have any experience that's at all related to these issues; at least you've not shared any. > That said, in my opinion, it is an issue, like the increased levels of suicide within military that if addressed would have a significant impact on a military being more fit for combat that those who have been unable to address these issues. They are addressed in the U.S. military. Suicide prevention programs and Mental Health programs are very big things in the U.S. military. I also would not describe it as a "culture of suicide" just because it occurs at a higher rate.