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The military trains you to be loyal to your comrades, not your spouse, but in my experience the person cheating in the relationship is usually the spouse of the

by least 4y ago

The military trains you to be loyal to your comrades, not your spouse, but in my experience the person cheating in the relationship is usually the spouse of the service member, not the service member. Recruiters talking about getting laid a ton is probably because the primary recruiting demographic is young single men, and they will say just about anything to get people to sign contracts.

O__________O 4y ago
Military in my experience is ruthlessly about self preservation - which is not in my opinion about loyalty, but about survival career wise and on the battlefield.
- least 4y ago
  > Military in my experience... What sort of experience do you have with the military? As someone who has served in the U.S. military, loyalty is absolutely drilled into you; it's integral to battle readiness, which is ultimately the military's goal. They instill the value of loyalty as far as it serves to make soldiers that are willing to fight and die for each other and for their country. That doesn't extend to any and everything, but I don't think any of your arguments that the military creates a culture of cheating are substantiated. The military actually creates disincentives from cheating that do not exist in the civilian world with the UCMJ.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Loyalty would not require enlistment contracts that generally last eight years as an active duty member, a reservist, or individual ready reservist — which if broken might result in jail time. Just imagine how “loyal” employees, marriages, etc would be if there only choice was to sign similar contracts. As for the battlefield, there is not duty to country, only those you’re in direct line of command with. Better hope they never break the law, since if they do, you report them, you will end up dead if you’re in active combat. The “drilling” you referred to is more comparable to brain washing than loyalty bound to reasoning. Yes, loyalty is an idle frequently never found, but to call someone loyal because they signed a contract or because they know what will happen if the report those willfully breaking the law, to me is not loyalty. In US, military within recent past had to literally and repeatedly remind all the military that their duty was to the country, not an idealogy or person — which would not have been done if the military truly was loyal, trusted itself, etc.
    - least 4y ago
      I'll take this response as a "No, I've never served in the military." You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of 'cheating.' At least give an example of what loyalty means to you, because it's certainly not going along with the actual definition of it, which does not require any sort of just cause or rational thought attached to it. > The “drilling” you referred to is more comparable to brain washing than loyalty bound to reasoning. Yes, and? It's training soldiers to be loyal to each other and to their superiors which are both important factors in battle readiness. You need to be able to follow orders in extreme situations and you need to have each other's back. This is taught to all SMs going through any training in practically any military in the world. > Yes, loyalty is an [ideal] frequently never found, but to call someone loyal because they signed a contract or because they know what will happen if the report those willfully breaking the law, to me is not loyalty. There's a thing called "unlawful orders" in the military. If a superior officer/NCO issues one, it is your duty to disobey it. This is easier said than done, of course. In either case, this is tangential to my point. What even is loyalty to you?
      - O__________O 4y ago
        >> What even is loyalty to you? To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. >> You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of cheating. Here’s a paper that showed veterans report extramarital sexual relationships at 2x the rate of nonveterans: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X12460510?journalCode=jfia https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X1246051... How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? Beyond that, under UCMJ adultery is a crime, even if retired, yet what percentage of active duty and veterans are charged? How frequently are those aware of adultery in military subject to UCMJ actions?
        least 4y ago
        > To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. In my best effort to interpret what you mean, I'd assume you mean that people only be loyal to reason? That's a fine ideal to have but it's got nothing to do with loyalty, which has to do with a person's consistent allegiance towards something. A person can be loyal to one thing and not loyal to another. > How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? You would explain it as they do in the paper you linked, which is that there are many extenuating circumstances surrounding veteran marriages that make it more vulnerable to higher rates of adultery. That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. But it also carries several caveats, like how the results of their analyses cannot be generalized towards the current veteran population, which is significantly different from their data, which dates back to 1992.

by least 4y ago

O__________O 4y ago

Military in my experience is ruthlessly about self preservation - which is not in my opinion about loyalty, but about survival career wise and on the battlefield.

least 4y ago
> Military in my experience... What sort of experience do you have with the military? As someone who has served in the U.S. military, loyalty is absolutely drilled into you; it's integral to battle readiness, which is ultimately the military's goal. They instill the value of loyalty as far as it serves to make soldiers that are willing to fight and die for each other and for their country. That doesn't extend to any and everything, but I don't think any of your arguments that the military creates a culture of cheating are substantiated. The military actually creates disincentives from cheating that do not exist in the civilian world with the UCMJ.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Loyalty would not require enlistment contracts that generally last eight years as an active duty member, a reservist, or individual ready reservist — which if broken might result in jail time. Just imagine how “loyal” employees, marriages, etc would be if there only choice was to sign similar contracts. As for the battlefield, there is not duty to country, only those you’re in direct line of command with. Better hope they never break the law, since if they do, you report them, you will end up dead if you’re in active combat. The “drilling” you referred to is more comparable to brain washing than loyalty bound to reasoning. Yes, loyalty is an idle frequently never found, but to call someone loyal because they signed a contract or because they know what will happen if the report those willfully breaking the law, to me is not loyalty. In US, military within recent past had to literally and repeatedly remind all the military that their duty was to the country, not an idealogy or person — which would not have been done if the military truly was loyal, trusted itself, etc.
  - least 4y ago
    I'll take this response as a "No, I've never served in the military." You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of 'cheating.' At least give an example of what loyalty means to you, because it's certainly not going along with the actual definition of it, which does not require any sort of just cause or rational thought attached to it. > The “drilling” you referred to is more comparable to brain washing than loyalty bound to reasoning. Yes, and? It's training soldiers to be loyal to each other and to their superiors which are both important factors in battle readiness. You need to be able to follow orders in extreme situations and you need to have each other's back. This is taught to all SMs going through any training in practically any military in the world. > Yes, loyalty is an [ideal] frequently never found, but to call someone loyal because they signed a contract or because they know what will happen if the report those willfully breaking the law, to me is not loyalty. There's a thing called "unlawful orders" in the military. If a superior officer/NCO issues one, it is your duty to disobey it. This is easier said than done, of course. In either case, this is tangential to my point. What even is loyalty to you?
    - O__________O 4y ago
      >> What even is loyalty to you? To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. >> You've also not substantiated your claims about how the military cultivates a culture of cheating. Here’s a paper that showed veterans report extramarital sexual relationships at 2x the rate of nonveterans: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X12460510?journalCode=jfia https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X1246051... How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? Beyond that, under UCMJ adultery is a crime, even if retired, yet what percentage of active duty and veterans are charged? How frequently are those aware of adultery in military subject to UCMJ actions?
      - least 4y ago
        > To me, loyalty to reasoning regardless of outcome. You cannot use the word you're defining inside the definition of it. In my best effort to interpret what you mean, I'd assume you mean that people only be loyal to reason? That's a fine ideal to have but it's got nothing to do with loyalty, which has to do with a person's consistent allegiance towards something. A person can be loyal to one thing and not loyal to another. > How else might you explain such a significant difference in rate of cheating beyond it being part of the culture? You would explain it as they do in the paper you linked, which is that there are many extenuating circumstances surrounding veteran marriages that make it more vulnerable to higher rates of adultery. That the cheating is a reflection of the self selecting population that trends towards joining the military rather than the military (the institution) doing anything to encourage that behavior. But it also carries several caveats, like how the results of their analyses cannot be generalized towards the current veteran population, which is significantly different from their data, which dates back to 1992.